History Headscratchers / StarTrekInsurrection

28th Jan '17 12:58:50 PM immortalfrieza
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*** The Bak'u probably kicked the Son'a's butts once push came to shove (or they weren't so pacifistic back then) and then went "Okay, you want to follow the ways of the Offlanders? (or whatever they called them) Fine, take this old P.O.S. and get the hell off our planet." Then the Bak'u gave them some barely even warp capable ship with no weapons and the Son'a were forced to wander the galaxy for a few decades at a snail's pace looking for better stuff. Given the Son'a's typical attitude by the time they had technology that could just annihilate the Bak'u they were too busy dealing with the metric crapton of enemies they made in the process to have the time for their revenge. Add in that the Federation had claimed the space and were at war with their allies The Dominion they had no choice but to barter with the Federation to complete their revenge before they died from old age. They might also have simply been reveling in their childhood fantasies of power and glory and thus didn't particularly care about getting revenge on the Bak'u until they started degenerating and really realized what being forced off the planet had really done to them.
*** To address the ActualPacifist issue, perhaps the Bak'u adopted that stance as a DIRECT result of the Son'a rebellion. The adults get into a civil war with their own children, beat the crap out of them and force them off the planet, then after awhile suffer a Bak'u wide [[MyGodWhatHaveIDone My God What Have We Done?]] and become ActualPacifist out of regret for what they've condemned their children to.
4th Jan '17 4:08:20 PM Antiyonder
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** In fairness, I think this is all really on the creative team for ultimately structuring the movie the way they did. Sure a lot of conflicts in real life do stem from lack of communication, but (complete) realism doesn't always make for good storytelling. In this case, it's really because the writers were stupidly hoping that the audience wouldn't question "Why doesn't the Federation simply approach the Ba'ku on using their spring to help millions?". Afterall, to actually take that approach in the movie means to have the Ba'ku recognizing that other have a need for their resource beyond reasons of convenience and luxury, thus ending the story much sooner. Otherwise the only choice besides that is to have the Ba'ku rejecting them and hoarding the water for themselves just to keep the movie going.
13th Dec '16 9:02:21 AM costanton11
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* They discover a planet with the mysterious power to provide eternal youth and immortality. Its inhabitants have for centuries lived an idyllic, pastoral existence. Everyone there wants to maintain their peaceful way of life. The captain of the Federation's flagship is adamant that their wishes should be respected. The planet is surrounded by a immense cloud of lethal energy storms, even the most heavily-armoured starships risk destruction should they try to penetrate it.

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* They discover a planet with the mysterious power to provide eternal youth and immortality. Its inhabitants have for centuries lived an idyllic, pastoral existence. Everyone there wants to maintain their peaceful way of life. The captain of the Federation's flagship is adamant that their wishes should be respected. The planet is surrounded by a immense cloud of lethal energy storms, even the most heavily-armoured heavily-armored starships risk destruction should they try to penetrate it.



*** The Space Amish are one town of a few hundred, maybe a few thousand. On a planet all to themselves. Why did nobody in the Federation say to the facemelts, "Why can't you just settle in the other hemisphere and leave them alone?" This is a widely recognized plot hole (I've seen it on the internet in two independent places).

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*** The Space Amish are one town of a few hundred, maybe a few thousand. On a planet all to themselves. Why did nobody in the Federation say to the facemelts, face melts, "Why can't you just settle in the other hemisphere and leave them alone?" This is a widely recognized plot hole (I've seen it on the internet in two independent places).



*** Not that ''Insurrection'' doesn't have one badly overwritted, tangled-up mess of an aesop, but the people living on the planet were colonists and, if I remember right, they'd only been on that planet for a hundred years or so. Maybe the Federation had already charted and claimed it back in the early days, and they just didn't make a fuss about the Space Amish who came along in the meantime until the planet became important. Maybe they'd been quietly debating what to do about that situation for years, and using the research teams to keep tabs on things in the meantime, until the magic radiation discovery turned it into a pressing issue.

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*** Not that ''Insurrection'' doesn't have one badly overwritted, overwritten, tangled-up mess of an aesop, Aesop, but the people living on the planet were colonists and, if I remember right, they'd only been on that planet for a hundred years or so. Maybe the Federation had already charted and claimed it back in the early days, and they just didn't make a fuss about the Space Amish who came along in the meantime until the planet became important. Maybe they'd been quietly debating what to do about that situation for years, and using the research teams to keep tabs on things in the meantime, until the magic radiation discovery turned it into a pressing issue.



** If you had a choice between absolutely saving your captain, one of the greatest men you'd ever known and someone you loved like family, and risking his life so that you could also save the man trying to not only kill him but commit small-scale genocide, would you seriously take the risk of your captain dying just so you could feel better about yourself on having adhered to principle? It's stated several times that the beamout had an extremely thin margin of error, period, so it's as likely as not that whoever was working the transporter realized they could only get one beamout, so of course they took Picard.

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** If you had a choice between absolutely saving your captain, one of the greatest men you'd ever known and someone you loved like family, and risking his life so that you could also save the man trying to not only kill him but commit small-scale genocide, would you seriously take the risk of your captain dying just so you could feel better about yourself on having adhered to principle? It's stated several times that the beamout beam out had an extremely thin margin of error, period, so it's as likely as not that whoever was working the transporter realized they could only get one beamout, beam out, so of course they took Picard.



* The Son'a exile doesn't make any sense. So the Bak'u children want to industrialise and reclaim their lost technology. Okay. So why didn't they just set up their own colony, ON THE SAME PLANET? Planets are -- how should I put this? -- ''fucking massive''. And the Bak'u number ''six hundred''. Why didn't they just say, "yep, we're exiled now, kthnx bye!" and set up a few hundred kilometres away? More to the point, how the ''fuck'' did the Bak'u manage to exile them? They refuse to pick up weapons! What are we supposed to think, a) the Son'a went into exile because of strongly-worded letters of disapproval, or b) the perfect SpaceElves armed themselves and threatened to kill their children if they didn't run away and accept a slow death? Jesus ''Christ'', the Bak'u are assholes. Picard should've just invoked the Prime Directive (remember, they're the same species, and the Prime Directive prevents him from interfering with internal matters of other races), and then lived it up thanks to the de-aging technology.

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* The Son'a exile doesn't make any sense. So the Bak'u children want to industrialise industrialize and reclaim their lost technology. Okay. So why didn't they just set up their own colony, ON THE SAME PLANET? Planets are -- how should I put this? -- ''fucking massive''. And the Bak'u number ''six hundred''. Why didn't they just say, "yep, we're exiled now, kthnx bye!" and set up a few hundred kilometres kilometers away? More to the point, how the ''fuck'' did the Bak'u manage to exile them? They refuse to pick up weapons! What are we supposed to think, a) the Son'a went into exile because of strongly-worded letters of disapproval, or b) the perfect SpaceElves armed themselves and threatened to kill their children if they didn't run away and accept a slow death? Jesus ''Christ'', the Bak'u are assholes. Picard should've just invoked the Prime Directive (remember, they're the same species, and the Prime Directive prevents him from interfering with internal matters of other races), and then lived it up thanks to the de-aging technology.



*** But that doesn't really hold up as Geordi was born blind, so if the radiation couldn't regrow hair, it shouldn't be able to fix whatever genetic defect made Gordi blind. Not to mention (unless I misremember the film/misinterpret what is stated) it caused him to regrow his eyeballs which is surely more extreme than hair growth (and on that note, shouldn't Picard have re grown his heart if this is the case?)

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*** But that doesn't really hold up as Geordi was born blind, so if the radiation couldn't regrow hair, it shouldn't be able to fix whatever genetic defect made Gordi Geordi blind. Not to mention (unless I misremember the film/misinterpret what is stated) it caused him to regrow his eyeballs which is surely more extreme than hair growth (and on that note, shouldn't Picard have re grown his heart if this is the case?)



*** You can make a similar argument about all the ships that would be required to distribute the particles across the Federation, especially those heading into war zones. And Starfleet is entirely capable of getting to and from the planet safely - the only ships lost during the movie belonged to the Son'a, and only because of the battle. I'm not saying this wouldn't require a lot of time, effort and resources, but it's still a more practical, long-term solution than destroying an inexhaustible natural resource, and a more moral solution (and far more in line with ''Star Trek'''s morality) than resorting to invasion, mass-kidnapping and destruction of property against defenceless people.

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*** You can make a similar argument about all the ships that would be required to distribute the particles across the Federation, especially those heading into war zones. And Starfleet is entirely capable of getting to and from the planet safely - the only ships lost during the movie belonged to the Son'a, and only because of the battle. I'm not saying this wouldn't require a lot of time, effort and resources, but it's still a more practical, long-term solution than destroying an inexhaustible natural resource, and a more moral solution (and far more in line with ''Star Trek'''s morality) than resorting to invasion, mass-kidnapping and destruction of property against defenceless defenseless people.



*** Except that at no point in the actual movie are the Ba'ku presented as being unwilling to share the planet. They ''don't'' have a problem with the Federation starting its own colony - it's Dougherty who shoots down that option to ensure the survival of the Son'a (despite them being Dominion collaborators) - they have a problem with the Federation kidnapping them, destroying their homes and basically telling them that not only do they not have the right to colonise remote uninhabited planets within Federation space, they ''never did'', even three hundred years ago before there was a Federation.

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*** Except that at no point in the actual movie are the Ba'ku presented as being unwilling to share the planet. They ''don't'' have a problem with the Federation starting its own colony - it's Dougherty who shoots down that option to ensure the survival of the Son'a (despite them being Dominion collaborators) - they have a problem with the Federation kidnapping them, destroying their homes and basically telling them that not only do they not have the right to colonise colonize remote uninhabited planets within Federation space, they ''never did'', even three hundred years ago before there was a Federation.



*** Okay, maybe not the best choice of words, but invasion is still by rights an act of war, and mass-kidnapping is still a crime even if you don't recognise the Ba'ku's claim on the planet after the 300 years they've called it home - which, as I've pointed out, has horrifying implications for any other non-Federation colony in Federation space, no matter how long it's been there. Bottom line, no matter how benign the Federation's actions are here, it's still a blatant abuse of power and infringement of another race's rights, to the point of denying that they even ''had'' such rights 300 years earlier, before the Federation existed.
*** Well then, if it is an "act of war", who will ''fight'' that war considering that the Ba'ku are ActualPacifist SpaceAmish? Note that sometimes necessity overrules morality. For example, in [[Recap/StarTrekS1E26ErrandOfMercy TOS: "Errand of Mercy"]], the Federation was fully-prepared to drag the seemingly pre-industrial Organians into their conflict with the Klingon Empire. ''Kirk'' actively tried to get the Organians to engage in a potentially-suicidal insurrection against the Klingon occupation, and he is considered the single biggest hero of the entire franchise! At the end of the day, this story parallels the whole storyline of ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'', which is that when faced with the potential death or enslavement of ''billions'' of people, allowing the needs of a miniscule minority to override everything else can be just as evil.

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*** Okay, maybe not the best choice of words, but invasion is still by rights an act of war, and mass-kidnapping is still a crime even if you don't recognise recognize the Ba'ku's claim on the planet after the 300 years they've called it home - which, as I've pointed out, has horrifying implications for any other non-Federation colony in Federation space, no matter how long it's been there. Bottom line, no matter how benign the Federation's actions are here, it's still a blatant abuse of power and infringement of another race's rights, to the point of denying that they even ''had'' such rights 300 years earlier, before the Federation existed.
*** Well then, if it is an "act of war", who will ''fight'' that war considering that the Ba'ku are ActualPacifist SpaceAmish? Note that sometimes necessity overrules morality. For example, in [[Recap/StarTrekS1E26ErrandOfMercy TOS: "Errand of Mercy"]], the Federation was fully-prepared to drag the seemingly pre-industrial Organians into their conflict with the Klingon Empire. ''Kirk'' actively tried to get the Organians to engage in a potentially-suicidal insurrection against the Klingon occupation, and he is considered the single biggest hero of the entire franchise! At the end of the day, this story parallels the whole storyline of ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'', which is that when faced with the potential death or enslavement of ''billions'' of people, allowing the needs of a miniscule minuscule minority to override everything else can be just as evil.



** Ru'afo simply wanted to get vengence upon the Ba'ku, that's all there was to it. First he went with the "relocate them all without them noticing" plan because it would be deliciously ironic, the Ba'ku suddenly finding out within a decade that their magical radiation no longer works and they proceed to slowly languish away just like the Son'a did without any means to get themselves off the planet because they rejected technology, all the while the Son'a laugh themselves sick enjoying the benefits of eternal youth once again AND being technologically advanced race at the same time, and when that fails simply launching the Injector and killing them all. This is all under the assumption that Ru'afo's claim that the Injector actually WORKED to get those particles is true and wasn't just a load of B.S. the Son'a said to the Federation in order to use their doomsday weapon to kill off the Ba'ku and prevent the Federation from ever getting their hands on the particles ever as a last laugh to their enemies. Ultimately everything the Son'a that don't go against Ru'afo do throughout the movie is about getting this revenge.

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** Ru'afo simply wanted to get vengence vengeance upon the Ba'ku, that's all there was to it. First he went with the "relocate them all without them noticing" plan because it would be deliciously ironic, the Ba'ku suddenly finding out within a decade that their magical radiation no longer works and they proceed to slowly languish away just like the Son'a did without any means to get themselves off the planet because they rejected technology, all the while the Son'a laugh themselves sick enjoying the benefits of eternal youth once again AND being technologically advanced race at the same time, and when that fails simply launching the Injector and killing them all. This is all under the assumption that Ru'afo's claim that the Injector actually WORKED to get those particles is true and wasn't just a load of B.S. the Son'a said to the Federation in order to use their doomsday weapon to kill off the Ba'ku and prevent the Federation from ever getting their hands on the particles ever as a last laugh to their enemies. Ultimately everything the Son'a that don't go against Ru'afo do throughout the movie is about getting this revenge.
30th Jun '16 1:00:07 AM Luppercus
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*** The effect may have something to do with re-generation, having Georgi's eyes re-generated from whatever original problem cause his blindness is possible, but boldness is not cause by that, there are many causes but I'm pretty sure none of them get cure by re-generating organs or tissue. Also IIRC the effect not only make you younger, also healthier and, again, boldness is not a health issue.

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*** The effect may have something to do with re-generation, having Georgi's Geordi's eyes re-generated from whatever original problem cause his blindness is possible, but boldness is not cause by that, there are many causes but I'm pretty sure none of them get cure by re-generating organs or tissue. Also IIRC the effect not only make you younger, also healthier and, again, boldness is not a health issue.
30th Jun '16 12:59:33 AM Luppercus
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***The effect may have something to do with re-generation, having Georgi's eyes re-generated from whatever original problem cause his blindness is possible, but boldness is not cause by that, there are many causes but I'm pretty sure none of them get cure by re-generating organs or tissue. Also IIRC the effect not only make you younger, also healthier and, again, boldness is not a health issue.
30th Jun '16 12:51:00 AM Luppercus
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*** Even more, the Founders may fear that some of the subject species see the increased life-span tempting and want to rebel, JemHadar live like nine years IIRC.

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*** Even more, the Founders may fear that some of the subject species see the increased life-span tempting and want to rebel, JemHadar Jem Hadar live like nine years IIRC.
30th Jun '16 12:50:33 AM Luppercus
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***Even more, the Founders may fear that some of the subject species see the increased life-span tempting and want to rebel, JemHadar live like nine years IIRC.
7th Jan '16 5:14:08 AM Durison
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**** That could actually work. The Ba'ku say that they came from a planet that was destroying itself in a war. The Son'a rebellion would have been a sobering reminder of their species' violent history.
23rd Dec '15 8:46:43 AM Durison
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** Also, the film may have been attempting to imply that the So'na needed Federation resources to complete the project. After all, the collector ship seemed like some pretty specialized tech.
20th Nov '15 6:50:51 AM Durison
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** To put it as simply as possible the Ba'ku are SpaceAmish.
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