History Headscratchers / MassEffect2

16th Aug '16 10:57:22 AM Forenperser
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** And again, that wasn't the ''intent''. The intent was to ''free'' Tali of all charges and lay the blame (rightfully) at her father. What the migrant fleet does with it is their concern. And yes, I think it is justified to speculate, because choices like tha exist. Let's take Zaeed's Loyalty mission for example (admittedly, it's the most extreme I could think of). Letting the guy who betrayed him and tried to murder him escape also ''hurts him personally''. Now you might say that it involved letting people die, but again, covering for Rael involves whitewashing experimenting on live Geth.

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** And again, that wasn't the ''intent''. The intent was to ''free'' Tali of all charges and lay the blame (rightfully) at her father. What the migrant fleet does with it is their concern. And yes, I think it is justified to speculate, because choices like tha exist. Let's take Zaeed's Loyalty mission for example (admittedly, it's the most extreme I could think of). Letting the guy who betrayed him and tried to murder him escape also ''hurts him personally''. Now you might say that it involved letting people die, but again, covering for Rael involves whitewashing experimenting on live Geth. Hell, he even points out that killing Vido probably saves more lives than the workers.
16th Aug '16 2:49:27 AM Forenperser
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** And again, that wasn't the ''intent''. The intent was to ''free'' Tali of all charges and lay the blame (rightfully) at her father. What the migrant fleet does with it is their concern. And yes, I think it is justified to speculate, because choices like tha exist. Let's take Zaeed's Loyalty mission for example (admittedly, it's the most extreme I could think of). Letting the guy who betrayed him and tried to murder him escape also ''hurts him personally''. Now you might say that it involved letting people die, but again, covering for Rael involves whitewashing experimenting on live Geth.
15th Aug '16 3:34:47 PM Zaptech
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** We don't know if such a quest would present Paragon or Renegade points for such a decision, because no such quest ''exists''. Let's not talk hypotheticals here. Again: the Paragon option is always the one that presents less pain and suffering and is more compassionate and forgiving. Not only does covering up Rael's crimes spare Tali pain and suffering, but it spares the Migrant Fleet from losing the memory of one of the esteemed leaders. Exposing Rael's crimes does nothing but hurt Tali, destroy his reputation, and hurts the Migrant Fleet. That earns Renegade points.
13th Aug '16 10:09:37 AM Forenperser
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** It doesn't make any sense though. Yes, you are hurting her and exposing their father, but again, the man is a war criminal. If there would be a quest in the game where a Cerberus scientist experiments on living Asari (also for the supposed greater good, rmember Cerberus being presented as a WellIntentionedExtremist organisation here), and Miranda would ask you not to expose this because he was an old friend of her, do you think that would have given you Paragon points? Its the ProtagonistCenteredMorality that bugs me here.
8th Aug '16 1:30:49 AM Zaptech
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** That's because Paragon isn't "by the book." Paragon is compassionate and respectful of the wishes of others, generally aiming for the least damaging option. Renegade is generally harsher and crueler, and utilitarian: achieve the objective and damn the consequences, feelings, and safety of everyone involved. Exposing Rael will forever destroy his reputation as well as hurting Tali personally. Covering up his crimes keeps his reputation intact and doesn't hurt Tali. That's why the game considers exposing him to be the Renegade option.
29th Jul '16 12:25:48 PM Forenperser
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[[/folder]]

[[folder: Exposing Tali's father renegade?]]
* This is one of the most irritating instances where I just don't get the moral system. What exactly is ''Renegade'' about exposing the crimes of Tali's father? Sure, it inadvertently causes a schism in the quarian fleet, but that was not Shepard's intent. His intent was to expose a full-blown '''War criminal''' (no matter how supposedly well-intentioned), who not only got dozens of co-workers killed and endangered the entire fleet, but who knowingly experimented on living creatures. And please don't go all 'The Geth are only machines' now, it was pretty clear how aware he and his team were of the intelligence and capability for empathy, which we see in the third game. Regardless, I just don't see how that could be considered to be Renegade, only because Tali objects to it due to emotional reasons. A Paragon Shepard is a clear-cut example of a ByTheBookCop. Exposing Rael should have given the player ''Paragon'' points.
23rd Jul '16 10:26:08 AM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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** TIM explains if you ask him. If you had been tipped off before going in, it would have possibly given away the fact that you ''knew'' it was a trap going in, which would have ruined the effort to gather information. The only way to ensure the Collectors would let Shepard get deep enough into the ship to gather the information needed would have been to let the Collectors think Shepard had fallen for their trap, and the only way to guarantee that would happen would be to ensure Shepard walked into the trap without foreknowledge. TIM is GenreSavvy enough to know the trap wouldn't have worked and Shepard would fight free regardless.

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** TIM explains if you ask him. If you had been tipped off before going in, it would have possibly given away the fact that you ''knew'' it was a trap going in, which would have ruined the effort to gather information. The only way to ensure the Collectors would let Shepard get deep enough into the ship to gather the information needed would have been to let the Collectors think Shepard had fallen for their trap, and the only way to guarantee that would happen would be to ensure Shepard walked into the trap without foreknowledge. TIM is GenreSavvy enough to know knows the trap wouldn't have worked and Shepard would fight free regardless.
17th Jul '16 1:14:57 PM hunter139
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** Does it strike anyone else as stretching the boundaries of believability that Cerberus has so many scientists and other highly qualified professionals working for it and so many research facilities, no matter how well funded it is? First of all, scientists and engineers with the kind of expertise needed to carry out the kind of cutting edge work Cerberus is involved in (such as creating a new Normandy or a highly advanced AI or using quantum entanglement to create a direct link between the Normandy and the Illusive Man) must be rare and valuable commodities with no shortage of other career opportunities, made even rarer by Cerberus being effectively limited by its ideology to recruiting only humans. Second, Cerberus is known as a human supremacist terrorist organization, an ideology a good many of the potential recruitment prospects would likely want nothing to do with, and even those who sympathize with said ideology might balk at the notion of working for an organization that would potentially put them in danger of arrest and imprisonment. Third, the experiments they carry out are often ethically suspect in the extreme, which would certainly drive away yet more prospective recruits when the details were revealed to them. Finally, virtually every research facility Cerberus has ''ends up getting wiped out'' by said ethically suspect experiments, and when major figures in the scientific community who go to work for Cerberus are repeatedly never heard from again or revealed to have died horribly, I can't imagine how they would ever find replacements. Where is Cerberus getting these people?

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** * Does it strike anyone else as stretching the boundaries of believability that Cerberus has so many scientists and other highly qualified professionals working for it and so many research facilities, no matter how well funded it is? First of all, scientists and engineers with the kind of expertise needed to carry out the kind of cutting edge work Cerberus is involved in (such as creating a new Normandy or a highly advanced AI or using quantum entanglement to create a direct link between the Normandy and the Illusive Man) must be rare and valuable commodities with no shortage of other career opportunities, made even rarer by Cerberus being effectively limited by its ideology to recruiting only humans. Second, Cerberus is known as a human supremacist terrorist organization, an ideology a good many of the potential recruitment prospects would likely want nothing to do with, and even those who sympathize with said ideology might balk at the notion of working for an organization that would potentially put them in danger of arrest and imprisonment. Third, the experiments they carry out are often ethically suspect in the extreme, which would certainly drive away yet more prospective recruits when the details were revealed to them. Finally, virtually every research facility Cerberus has ''ends up getting wiped out'' by said ethically suspect experiments, and when major figures in the scientific community who go to work for Cerberus are repeatedly never heard from again or revealed to have died horribly, I can't imagine how they would ever find replacements. Where is Cerberus getting these people?
17th Jul '16 1:14:07 PM hunter139
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** Does it strike anyone else as stretching the boundaries of believability that Cerberus has so many scientists and other highly qualified professionals working for it and so many research facilities, no matter how well funded it is? First of all, scientists and engineers with the kind of expertise needed to carry out the kind of cutting edge work Cerberus is involved in (such as creating a new Normandy or a highly advanced AI or using quantum entanglement to create a direct link between the Normandy and the Illusive Man) must be rare and valuable commodities with no shortage of other career opportunities, made even rarer by Cerberus being effectively limited by its ideology to recruiting only humans. Second, Cerberus is known as a human supremacist terrorist organization, an ideology a good many of the potential recruitment prospects would likely want nothing to do with, and even those who sympathize with said ideology might balk at the notion of working for an organization that would potentially put them in danger of arrest and imprisonment. Third, the experiments they carry out are often ethically suspect in the extreme, which would certainly drive away yet more prospective recruits when the details were revealed to them. Finally, virtually every research facility Cerberus has ''ends up getting wiped out'' by said ethically suspect experiments, and when major figures in the scientific community who go to work for Cerberus are repeatedly never heard from again or revealed to have died horribly, I can't imagine how they would ever find replacements. Where is Cerberus getting these people?[[/folder]]

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** Does it strike anyone else as stretching the boundaries of believability that Cerberus has so many scientists and other highly qualified professionals working for it and so many research facilities, no matter how well funded it is? First of all, scientists and engineers with the kind of expertise needed to carry out the kind of cutting edge work Cerberus is involved in (such as creating a new Normandy or a highly advanced AI or using quantum entanglement to create a direct link between the Normandy and the Illusive Man) must be rare and valuable commodities with no shortage of other career opportunities, made even rarer by Cerberus being effectively limited by its ideology to recruiting only humans. Second, Cerberus is known as a human supremacist terrorist organization, an ideology a good many of the potential recruitment prospects would likely want nothing to do with, and even those who sympathize with said ideology might balk at the notion of working for an organization that would potentially put them in danger of arrest and imprisonment. Third, the experiments they carry out are often ethically suspect in the extreme, which would certainly drive away yet more prospective recruits when the details were revealed to them. Finally, virtually every research facility Cerberus has ''ends up getting wiped out'' by said ethically suspect experiments, and when major figures in the scientific community who go to work for Cerberus are repeatedly never heard from again or revealed to have died horribly, I can't imagine how they would ever find replacements. Where is Cerberus getting these people?[[/folder]]people?
** From the same place Blackwatch, Weyland-Yutani, Umbrella and every other shady organization with questionable scientific practices get their personnel: they grow them out of a cloning lab. In all seriousness, though, the Illusive Man probably recruits many of his scientists with less than savory methods; blackmail, bribery, kidnapping families, as well as more benevolent recruitment means. Secondly, it's not really made clear how well-known many of the scientists that work for Cerberus are, or how many of them got recruited in the first place. For all we know, the scientific community in the 22nd century is much larger than it is today, especially if they're studying all sorts of new and amazing fields that they lacked decades ago before discovering the Galactic community. Thirdly, considering all the containment breaches at each facility, it's plausible that Cerberus actually isn't hiring the best and brightest if they let all that happen in the first place. It would explain why basically every scientific experiment they do ends up going rogue and starts killing all their guys.
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16th Jul '16 5:14:49 PM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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** The Illusive Man is DangerouslyGenreSavvy. He would know that make a kid super powerful through torture would come back and bite them in the ass big time.

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** The Illusive Man is DangerouslyGenreSavvy. He would know that make a kid super powerful through torture would come back and bite them in the ass big time.



* So the Collectors hire the Shadow Broker to secure Shepard's body [[DangerouslyGenreSavvy to make sure s/he's dead]]. Fair enough, I suppose. But...the Collectors just shot Shepard down. Why do they need to hire a middleman when they're already ''right there?''

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* So the Collectors hire the Shadow Broker to secure Shepard's body [[DangerouslyGenreSavvy to make sure s/he's dead]].dead. Fair enough, I suppose. But...the Collectors just shot Shepard down. Why do they need to hire a middleman when they're already ''right there?''
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