History Fridge / Catherine

* Casting LauraBailey and MichelleRuff to voice Catherine and Katherine respectively in the English version must have been deliberate. [[VideoGame/{{Persona 4}} Rise]] and [[VideoGame/{{Persona 3}} Yukari]] both represent the [[TarotMotifs Lovers Arcana]], which classically represents two paths in life and choosing the one to follow. Guess what Vincent has to deal with?

* Casting LauraBailey and MichelleRuff to voice Catherine and Katherine respectively in the English version must have been deliberate. [[{{Persona4}} Rise]] and [[{{Persona3}} Yukari]] both represent the [[TarotMotifs Lovers Arcana]], which classically represents two paths in life and choosing the one to follow. Guess what Vincent has to deal with?

* While playing the game, when you do well and climb fast, you'll hear people cheering you. Eventually, I realised that there was a pretty good in-universe reason for this happening as [[spoiler: the other sheeps climbing comes to see you as a leader as you progress through the tower]]. Mew seeker

** Yet another for the fridge; when Vincent is drunk, he walks around in a really odd manner. Until you realize he stumbles around like a [[spoiler: sheep. ]]
* Another for the fridge; [[spoiler: Dumuzid's plan doesn't really make sense, He wants to increase the population, by forcing people to get married. In a world in which the global population is a massive drain on resources and the planet, his plan seems absolutely idiotic. Unless you consider the fact that his plan may be exclusively focused on the dwindling Japanese population.]]
** [[spoiler: Doubtful that he's focusing on Japan, the game is set in America.]]

** [[spoiler: It probably has something to do with what we learn in the True Freedom ending. Namely that the series is set in a time period where not only do they have massive, futuristic starships, but space colonies that look like regular towns, raising the question of whether or not the ENTIRE GAME takes place in space. If something happened to earth and humanity was surviving on space stations, that would certainly call for ensuring survival, wouldn't it?]]
** [[spoiler: Bear in mind that Dumuzid is working under Ishtar, a goddess of ''fertility''. It probably has less to do with actually keeping the human population up; rather, suppose that in order to sustain her power or possibly even to exist, Ishtar needs humans to breed? It certainly makes more sense then, if that were the true purpose.]]
* Consider the stages where Vincent directly interacts with other sheep, instead of them just falling to their deaths in the background. The bosses for those areas are based off of fear of commitment, which is why you never see the NPC sheep (who all have a constant, specific boss in their Nightmares). So why did he run into [[spoiler: Steve]] after fighting [[spoiler: his Shadow]]? Because [[spoiler: Shadow of Vincent]] was ''also'' a monster to [[spoiler: Steve]],[[spoiler: as the man who stole Catherine from him. When he realizes the sheep before him is Vincent, the Shadow appears and sheds its mask.]]
* Why is the KarmaMeter in this game leaning towards UnfortunateImplications? Consider that the Nightmare world is under the jurisdiction of [[spoiler: [[HypocriticalHumor a womanizing man]] who gained the powers of [[EldritchAbomination a god]]. Thomas Mutton/Dumuzid is either taking out his own issues on average Joes and lying about why so he looks good, or he's just incapable of changing his ways unless defeated. And in the myths, he was condemned to the Underworld because he didn't mourn his wife when she was trapped there, which is why he's working with ''demons''.]] In short, it's DeliberateValuesDissonance.

***** Context is what's most important here, BettyAndVeronica isn't about the girl's personalities as much as it is about how they relate to other members of the LoveTriangle[=/=]Harem, and specifically how easily attainable are they (be it because of class, attitude, or appearance) with Betties being ordinary and easy to "catch" without causing any major fusses while a Veronica is a girl that would otherwise seem out of their guy's league. Compared to IllGirl Fuuka, FemBot Aigis, UpTownGirl Mitsuru, and... [[BonusBoss Whatever the heck]] Elizabeth is the Tsundere ClingyJealousGirl Yukari is ''easily'' the Betty of her game. On the other hand GenkiGirl IdolSinger Rise is an extremely popular Idol whose competition are all rather normal high school girls, in appearance and personality if not profession, like the TomBoy Chie, YamatoNadeshiko Yukiko, and SweetPollyOliver Naoto which makes her the game's most obvious Veronica. So frankly the voice actresses still line up with their original role's archetypes rather nicely.

* The reason given by [[spoiler: Thomas Mutton/Dumuzid]] for the nightmares doesn't sound very real at first considering the [[spoiler: the size of humanity]]. However when you get to the intro for Axis Mundi [[spoiler: Ishtar]] admits that the stated reason was really just bull and its ''real'' reason was to find [[spoiler: someone who could be her consort to replace Dumuzid]].
* You might wonder why Catherine managed to get your phone number and sends texts even if you don't respond. It makes perfect sense when you remember that (and this is barely a spoiler) [[spoiler: she's a succubus whose texts disappear the moment you win your freedom]]. She probably was able to just [[spoiler: send everything directly to Vincent and never his phone]].
* Catherine's photos to you. If you pay attention and apply a bit of Fridge Logic you'll notice that [[spoiler: several seem far too professional to do with a phone]]. They suddenly make a lot more sense once you find out that [[spoiler: they're all illusions that follow what Vincent wants]].

* FridgeHorror: What if [[spoiler: Katherine actually got the knife instead of Catherine on the 7th day?]]
** [[spoiler: Nothing, because it was a dream.]]
*** [[spoiler: The entire point of the game is that people are dying in real life because they died in a dream. And given that that cut scene happened in one of THOSE dreams...]]

*** I know [[spoiler: that was Vincent's dream, but he could have been killed and died in the real world because Katherine would have killed him if she had gotten the knife.]]

*** Since it was just [[spoiler: a dream Katherine]] was just a [[spoiler: part of Vincent's own mind and obviously couldn't actually plan anything]]. Whether or not [[spoiler: the dream had to go as shown or if it could have gone another way (possibly leading to Vincent's death or a bluff) is very unclear]] especially since we don't know if it really was [[spoiler: the kind of dream where you can die or if Catherine had anything to do with it]].
* More Fridge Horror [[spoiler: If Dumuzid's plan was to increase the worlds population by horrifically killing people who hindered reproduction, just imagine what he could and WOULD do if he wanted to limit or decrease the population! So many sheep so little time... ]]

* Let's assume [[spoiler: Erica]] was having ''the'' nightmares for keeping [[spoiler: Toby]] from a relationship that would produce children. How many innocent unsuspecting LGBT people could have or did die because of [[spoiler: Dumuzid]] [[IWantGrandkids wanting grandkids?]]
** It seems to mainly be an issue of people leading their partners on. [[spoiler: Toby didn't know about Erica's past at the time it was implied that she was having the nightmares.]] Transpeople who disclose their history to their partners probably wouldn't be affected since everyone involved would either leave the relationship or choose to stay with the full knowledge that it won't result in children.

* In stage 3 of {{Catherine}}, Vincent is being chased by an upside-down body with a tongue protruding from the...er...behind. Each monster he faces is stated to have come from his own mind. Well, the next morning, [[YourCheatingHeart Catherine]] calls him a "perv" but refuses to expand on what they did...''[[BrainBleach Eww]]''. [[spoiler: She was probably lying to further tempt Vincent, but the implication is still there.]]
** Later in the game, by meeting the right conditions, Midnight Venus reveals herself as [[spoiler: Ishtar]] and [[BreakingTheFourthWall congratulates the player character]] by [[spoiler: making you her co-deity of love]] with everything that goes with it. The problem? [[spoiler: Ishtar's]] lovers, even the non-mortal ones, had a tendency to [[DeathBySex end up dead]], as pointed out waaay back in Literature/TheEpicOfGilgamesh. With that in mind, though, maybe it's better that you ''don't'' [[WomanScorned turn her down]].

* At various points, there are references to Erika being hurt badly in a previous relationship. [[spoiler: Then comes the revelation that she is a male-to-female transexual, and it becomes clear that she was the victim of a hate crime. Suddenly, Vincent, Johnny, and Orlando's desire to keep Toby from dating her looks very different]].

* There's an easy-to-miss one in the rest area/confession booth thing, from the sixth level on. Talking to the longhaired sheep, you learn that the monster he keeps trying to outrun is his mother, a mother who tried to 'lock him away' but that he escaped and has been running ever since. On one of the landings when you talk to him he mentions that her hands were always cold and that she [[ParentalIncest never let him wear clothes....]]
** [[spoiler: Archie]] outright confims this on a later landing, [[spoiler: if you save him and Todd. Todd's]] reaction to this probably matches the players.
--> '''[[spoiler: Todd]]''': Holy [[PrecisionFStrike fuck!]]

* At the end of the super challenge thingummy, [[spoiler: Ishtar]] decides to go after ''you'', the player. '''This is not a good thing.''' Remember the EpicOfGilgamesh? Sure, she's a pretty girl, but in the end she always gets tired of her lovers and does away with them. [[spoiler: Mutton]] should just thank his lucky stars that he's easier to leave than kill...

*** I know that, but the point of winning the Nightmare Sequence doesn't have something to do with making babies. [[spoiler: Men are thrown in there to die because they are in a relationship that won't produce kids. Erica had the nightmares because she was with Toby, who wants kids but didn't know she was a transsexual.]]

*** Even if she was having the Nightmare, you don't have to follow [[spoiler: Dumuzid's]] rules to escape. Vincent is able to win even if he takes the Cheaters or Freedom route.

** But they ''are'' heading for the top... [[spoiler: Shadow of Vincent seemed to be toying with Vincent, though.]]
** It looks like [[spoiler: Shadow of Vincent]], [[spoiler: Thomas Mutton]], and [[spoiler: the Dumuzid]] are the only bosses who aren't restricted to climbing, so probably not.

** It isn't certain that Justin's correct. For all we know this has been going on every single year. Alternatively [[spoiler: Mutton]] was simply lying. Or maybe Atlus simply missed it.
** Margin of error? There's no indications that would tell us how long the [[spoiler:nightmares]] last so while they could happen every hundred years, they might also last several decades.

* So since [[spoiler: Katherine killed Catherine in the knife struggle]], did she [[TookALevelInBadass take a level in badass?]]

** Considering the angle it looks more like it was an accident and [[spoiler: Katherine]] clearly isn't at all happy with the outcome. Probably not an example of badassery.
* If the whole point of these dreams is [[spoiler: to remove men from relationships that won't result in children, then could committed, but infertile men be subjected to the dreams? and what about lesbians? One would assume that adoption wouldn't be a way out of Ishtar's scheme, for while that is child rearing, it doesn't do anything to increase the population. I guess in-vitro fertilization is still a choice, there, but would that count?]]
** Check the Fridge Brilliance section. [[spoiler: Ishtar]] admits that the given reason [[spoiler: is bull and she just wants a new boyfriend]].
[[spoiler: OR girlfriend, considering she talks to the PLAYER not Vincent]]

** Check the Fridge Brilliance section. [[spoiler: Ishtar]] admits that the given reason [[spoiler: is bull and she just wants a new boyfriend]].

** [[MissingThePoint More importantly, why can't he just dream himself a jetpack?]]

--> '''[[spoiler: Todd]]''': Holy [[PrecisionFStrike fuck.]]

* One of the confessional questions is "Boxers or briefs?" -- kind of an odd thing to ask Vincent, since [[ISeeLondon he's clearly already made his choice]], so answering "briefs" would just be hypocritical on his part. However, [[spoiler:Astaroth, who is an avatar of Ishtar, is responsible for the questions, and Ishtar/Trisha always speaks directly to the player. So the question isn't really for Vincent anyway.]]

** Later in the game, by meeting the right conditions, Midnight Venus reveals herself as [[spoiler: Ishtar]] and [[BreakingTheFourthWall congratulates the player character]] by [[spoiler: making you her co-deity of love]] with everything that goes with it. The problem? [[spoiler: Ishtar's]] lovers, even the non-mortal ones, had a tendency to [[DeathBySex end up dead]], as pointed out waaay back in TheEpicOfGilgamesh. With that in mind, though, maybe it's better that you ''don't'' [[WomanScorned turn her down]].

* Why is the KarmaMeter in this game leaning towards UnfortunateImplications ([[YourMileageMayVary for some]])? Consider that the Nightmare world is under the jurisdiction of [[spoiler: [[HypocriticalHumor a womanizing man]] who gained the powers of [[EldritchAbomination a god]]. Thomas Mutton/Dumuzid is either taking out his own issues on average Joes and lying about why so he looks good, or he's just incapable of changing his ways unless defeated. And in the myths, he was condemned to the Underworld because he didn't mourn his wife when she was trapped there, which is why he's working with ''demons''.]] In short, it's DeliberateValuesDissonance.

* If the whole point of these dreams is [[spoiler: to remove men from relationships that won't result in children, then could committed, but infertile men be subjected to the dreams? and what about lesbians? One would assume that adoption wouldn't be a way out of Ishtar's scheme, for while that is child rearing, it doesn't do anything to increase the population. I guess in-vitro fertilization is still a choice, there, but would that count?]]