Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 42 (click to see context) from:
** Ashleybud: Chapter 619 is a definite DarthWiki/DethroningMomentOfSuck for me. I really hate Sasuke at this point and am getting real tired of Naruto in general, which is sad because Masashi Kishimoto is a great writer but he has this CreatorsPet thing for Sasuke to the point of completely ignoring and rewriting canon in an effort to make him likeable. You've taken his character to a point where happily making up is literally impossible, so accept it and move on. But what really makes this a DMTS is this notion of the Uchiha gaining their power because they love too much. No other clan treasured love like the Uchiha is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. There is nothing, absolutely nothing to support this; in fact, evidence proves the complete opposite. First, let’s take a look at the requirements for the Mangekyō Sharingan: the first one we as the audience were told was that the Mangekyō Sharingan is awakened through the trauma experienced from the death of the person closest to the Sharingan user. With the user normally having to witness or experience this first hand, Uchiha throughout history have killed the person closest to them in order to expedite this process. To obtain the Mangekyō Sharingan, one must feel the emotion of losing a friend or family, as merely killing them or watching them die will not activate it. That’s not love being tainted, that is killing a loved one in order to gain power. Then, to gain the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan you have to take and transplant the Mangekyō of another Uchiha — integrating the two pairs of eyes in the process. Once again a sign of the Uchiha selfishly sacrificing a loved one to obtain power because the tighter the blood ties are between the "donor" and the "receiver", the better it is for compatibility — a sibling for example seems to make the best donor. And they only do this because over time, use of the Mangekyō Sharingan's techniques deteriorates the user's eyesight to the point of blindness. So not only do they abuse the power they gain from sacrificing a loved one to the point of killing themselves, they just sacrifice another one. And when you think about it the Uchiha rebelling because they were forced to live in separate quarters doesn’t make sense because every bloodlimit clan lives in their own separate areas in order to practice their techniques in secrets. They lived in opulent mansions, could continue to be ninja and ninja police, even a few being a Hokage Candidate's student. Hell, even Madara's story falls apart when we realize there WAS a Hokage Candidate who was a Uchiha in Hiruzen's time. Them wanting more governmental power falls on its face when they run the police. Heck, this entire war is because 1. Tobi wants revenge and 2. Madara wants to erase the fact that he lost from the face of the earth. It’s pretty obvious Sasuke is going to be forgiven somehow, but at least make it believable. If only the Third had told Sasuke that the curse of the Uchiha was that they were entitled assholes who believe everything should be handed to them. When they're not strong enough they take the skill from their opponent, and when that isn’t enough they kill a loved one for power. When they abuse that power they do it again. If that doesn’t work they bend reality to their wishes. And finally, when that doesn’t prove enough they seal opponents within their own mind. The Uchiha were willing to kill thousands upon thousands of innocent people because they felt they weren’t given enough and Sasuke’s actions up to now proves that the Third made the right decision. Sorry about the rant but I was so pissed that it took a while to put my thoughts into words.
to:
** Ashleybud: Chapter 619 is a definite DarthWiki/DethroningMomentOfSuck for me. I really hate Sasuke at this point and am getting real tired of Naruto in general, which is sad because Masashi Kishimoto is a great writer but he has this CreatorsPet thing for Sasuke to the point of completely ignoring and rewriting canon in an effort to make him likeable. You've taken his character to a point where happily making up is literally impossible, so accept it and move on. But what really makes this a DMTS is this notion of the Uchiha gaining their power because they love too much. No other clan treasured love like the Uchiha is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. There is nothing, absolutely nothing to support this; in fact, evidence proves the complete opposite. First, let’s take a look at the requirements for the Mangekyō Sharingan: the first one we as the audience were told was that the Mangekyō Sharingan is awakened through the trauma experienced from the death of the person closest to the Sharingan user. With the user normally having to witness or experience this first hand, Uchiha throughout history have killed the person closest to them in order to expedite this process. To obtain the Mangekyō Sharingan, one must feel the emotion of losing a friend or family, as merely killing them or watching them die will not activate it. That’s not love being tainted, that is killing a loved one in order to gain power. Then, to gain the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan you have to take and transplant the Mangekyō of another Uchiha — integrating the two pairs of eyes in the process. Once again a sign of the Uchiha selfishly sacrificing a loved one to obtain power because the tighter the blood ties are between the "donor" and the "receiver", the better it is for compatibility — a sibling for example seems to make the best donor. And they only do this because over time, use of the Mangekyō Sharingan's techniques deteriorates the user's eyesight to the point of blindness. So not only do they abuse the power they gain from sacrificing a loved one to the point of killing themselves, they just sacrifice another one. And when you think about it the Uchiha rebelling because they were forced to live in separate quarters doesn’t make sense because every bloodlimit clan lives in their own separate areas in order to practice their techniques in secrets. secret. They lived in opulent mansions, mansions; they could continue to be ninja and ninja police, even a few being a Hokage Candidate's student. Hell, even Madara's story falls apart when we realize there WAS a Hokage Candidate who was a Uchiha in Hiruzen's time. Them wanting more governmental power falls on its face when they run the police. Heck, this entire war is because 1. Tobi wants revenge and 2. Madara wants to erase the fact that he lost from the face of the earth. It’s pretty obvious Sasuke is going to be forgiven somehow, but at least make it believable. If only the Third had told Sasuke that the curse of the Uchiha was that they were entitled assholes who believe everything should be handed to them. When they're not strong enough they take the skill from their opponent, and when that isn’t enough they kill a loved one for power. When they abuse that power they do it again. If that doesn’t work they bend reality to their wishes. And finally, when that doesn’t prove enough they seal opponents within their own mind. The Uchiha were willing to kill thousands upon thousands of innocent people because they felt they weren’t given enough enough, and Sasuke’s actions up to now proves prove that the Third made the right decision. Sorry about the rant but I was so pissed that it took a while to put my thoughts into words.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 61 (click to see context) from:
* @/ArcaneAzmadi: It's hard to pinpoint the precise moment that this manga irredeemably went to the dogs, but Kaguya being revealed to be [[TheManBehindTheMan The Woman Behind The Man Behind The Man Behind The Man]] behind everything was the last straw. Hey Kishimoto? Did anyone point out to you that you did this twice already? First Tobi was The Man Behind Pain, then Madara (the real one) was the man behind Tobi and now, after revealing that Madara was (implausibly) behind almost every single event in the series, you flip him over to reveal that OOPS! he was just a pawn of Kaguya. But that's not the worst thing. No, the worst thing is the Kaguya reveal combined with the absurd bullshit that is the reveal that Naruto and Sasuke are the reincarnations of Indra and Asura. With one stroke, Kishimoto has literally rendered the entire series a ShaggyDogStory! Now the only characters who matter are the ones who were dead for centuries before the manga even began! From a plot perspective Naruto and Sasuke aren't even characters any more, they're just character-shaped pieces to be plugged into Indra- and Asura-shaped receptacles crafted for them by destiny. None of their achievements, none of the skills they've worked so hard to gain matter because they have roles pre-set for them to fill. And the series has literally discarded ''every'' single precept that once made it worth reading. Guts, heart and hard work are more important than natural talent and bloodline? Nope, that's been inverted to the ultimate degree with the plot twist that Naruto and Sasuke get their ultimate powers literally handed to them because of their past lives and the last 2 "normal" characters left standing, Sakura and Kakashi, get literally told to their faces that they're useless! There is no fate but what we make? Nope, this entire plot is just a reenactment of an ancient battle by ancient personas which has nothing to do with any of the actual people involved (looks like Neji was right all along)! This truly marked the stage where ''Naruto'' stopped being ''Naruto'' and became a horrible TrollFic of itself; seriously it's starting to make ''FanFic/NaretoTheScretOfShiobi'' look good by comparison! Possibly the best summary of the current situation was provided by a fellow forum-goer on a manga forum I frequent:
to:
* @/ArcaneAzmadi: It's hard to pinpoint the precise moment that this manga irredeemably went to the dogs, but Kaguya being revealed to be [[TheManBehindTheMan The Woman Behind The Man Behind The Man Behind The Man]] behind everything was the last straw. Hey Kishimoto? Did anyone point out to you that you did this twice already? First Tobi was The Man Behind Pain, then Madara (the real one) was the man behind Tobi and now, after revealing that Madara was (implausibly) behind almost every single event in the series, you flip him over to reveal that OOPS! he was just a pawn of Kaguya. But that's not the worst thing. No, the worst thing is the Kaguya reveal combined with the absurd bullshit that is the reveal that Naruto and Sasuke are the reincarnations of Indra and Asura. With one stroke, Kishimoto has literally rendered the entire series a ShaggyDogStory! Now the only characters who matter are the ones who were dead for centuries before the manga even began! From a plot perspective Naruto and Sasuke aren't even characters any more, they're just character-shaped pieces to be plugged into Indra- and Asura-shaped receptacles crafted for them by destiny. None of their achievements, none of the skills they've worked so hard to gain matter because they have roles pre-set for them to fill. And the series has literally discarded ''every'' single precept that once made it worth reading. Guts, heart and hard work are more important than natural talent and bloodline? Nope, that's been inverted to the ultimate degree with the plot twist that Naruto and Sasuke get their ultimate powers literally handed to them because of their past lives and the last 2 "normal" characters left standing, Sakura and Kakashi, get literally told to their faces that they're useless! There is no fate but what we make? Nope, this entire plot is just a reenactment of an ancient battle by ancient personas which has nothing to do with any of the actual people involved (looks like Neji was right all along)! This truly marked the stage where ''Naruto'' stopped being ''Naruto'' and became a horrible TrollFic of itself; seriously seriously, it's starting to make ''FanFic/NaretoTheScretOfShiobi'' look good by comparison! Possibly the best summary of the current situation was provided by a fellow forum-goer on a manga forum I frequent:
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 45 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/{{KantonKage}}: I was hard pressed to see which Uchiha redemption story I found to be complete bullshit. Then it hit me, it was Hashirama calling Itachi's better than him, seriously [[PunctuatedForEmphasis What! The! Fuck!]]. So all of a sudden the guy who {{Mind Rape}}d his brother for three days straight twice and killed his girlfriend. Yet for some reason, he is this saintly hero who sacrificed everything for our sins.
to:
* Tropers/{{KantonKage}}: I was hard pressed to see which Uchiha redemption story I found to be complete bullshit. Then it hit me, it was Hashirama calling Itachi's Itachi better than him, seriously [[PunctuatedForEmphasis What! The! Fuck!]]. So all of a sudden the guy who {{Mind Rape}}d his brother for three days straight twice and killed his girlfriend. Yet girlfriend is, for some reason, he is this saintly hero who sacrificed everything for our sins.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 25,26 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/{{ms_hufflepuff2295}} : Naruto's fight with Kimimaro. He goes into demon fox mode, makes enough clones to fill up a football stadium, all in all it looks like this is gearing up to be an epic fight. And what happens? Naruto sends about 5-6 clones at Kimimaro at a time while all the others just stand and watch them get obliterated. Over and over and over again. It's one of the most boring fights in the series in this troper's opinion, and it showcases the worst traits of the anime - Inconsistent art style, making Naruto look goofy? Check. Obvious skimping on animation, to the point where it's distracting? Check. Naruto trying literally the same thing over and over again with no variation and being shocked when he's beaten back each time? Check. If throwing a few clones at the enemy didn't work the first time, Naruto, what makes you think they'll work the next fifteen times?
to:
* Tropers/{{ms_hufflepuff2295}} : Tropers/{{ms_hufflepuff2295}}: Naruto's fight with Kimimaro. He goes into demon fox mode, makes enough clones to fill up a football stadium, all in all it looks like this is gearing up to be an epic fight. And what happens? Naruto sends about 5-6 clones at Kimimaro at a time while all the others just stand and watch them get obliterated. Over and over and over again. It's one of the most boring fights in the series in this troper's opinion, and it showcases the worst traits of the anime - Inconsistent art style, making Naruto look goofy? Check. Obvious skimping on animation, to the point where it's distracting? Check. Naruto trying literally the same thing over and over again with no variation and being shocked when he's beaten back each time? Check. If throwing a few clones at the enemy didn't work the first time, Naruto, what makes you think they'll work the next fifteen times?
times?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 31 (click to see context) from:
* Loekman3: For me, the moment when I finally snapped is when Nagato revived everyone from the village from a [[AssPull jutsu that comes out of nowhere]]. Firstly, it basically render any dramas of the majority of Konoha dying pointless. Second, it is completely out of the series [[AnyoneCanDie anyone can die]] theme; look at Asuma, Jiraiya, Chiyo, and Hiruzen, we [[TearJerker cried, we mourned their deaths]], that is what sets Naruto from the [[OnePiece other]] [[{{Manga/Bleach}} two]] shonen jumps in that Kishimoto is not afraid of killing of good guys and that is to me, one of the high points in Naruto. But, with Nagato's Rinne Tensei and later chapters, especially the [[PlotArmor Shinobi world war]], Naruto now is becoming no better that Bleach or One Piece in terms of [[DeathIsCheap how death is nothing but a slap on the wrist]] for the good guys. I'm sorry to say, but this is the official moment when Naruto has [[JumpingTheShark Jumped the Shark]] in my opinion.
to:
* Loekman3: For me, the moment when I finally snapped is when Nagato revived everyone from the village from a [[AssPull jutsu that comes out of nowhere]]. Firstly, it basically render any dramas of the majority of Konoha dying pointless. Second, it is completely out of the series [[AnyoneCanDie anyone can die]] theme; look at Asuma, Jiraiya, Chiyo, and Hiruzen, we [[TearJerker cried, we mourned their deaths]], that is what sets Naruto from the [[OnePiece [[Manga/OnePiece other]] [[{{Manga/Bleach}} two]] shonen jumps in that Kishimoto is not afraid of killing of good guys and that is to me, one of the high points in Naruto. But, with Nagato's Rinne Tensei and later chapters, especially the [[PlotArmor Shinobi world war]], Naruto now is becoming no better that Bleach or One Piece in terms of [[DeathIsCheap how death is nothing but a slap on the wrist]] for the good guys. I'm sorry to say, but this is the official moment when Naruto has [[JumpingTheShark Jumped the Shark]] in my opinion.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Changed line(s) 56 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/SuperSaiyaMan: Withdrawing my earlier entry for this. Chapters 659-661. AKA how Kishimoto shows how much of a VillainSue Madara Uchiha has become. After an enjoyable, humbling [[spoiler:[[CurbstompBattle beatdown that Madara got from all nine Biju]], he suddenly turns the tide after retrieving one Rinnegan]]. Now normally, that wouldn't be a big deal. But then [[spoiler:the Biju don't press the attack and keep operating under the assumption of TalkingIsAFreeAction. Thus, they all get knocked the fuck back by Madara without any sort of retaliation and immediately put on 'leashes'.]] Then to make matters worse, what does the Alliance do? [[spoiler:Just stand there like morons and make no attempt to help. And that's not the worse of it, when the chains are put on none of the Biju even attempt to fight back or even anchor themselves (like Kurama did against Nagato's Shinra Tensei).]] And finally, despite Naruto and Bee's seals being at full strength, [[spoiler:Kurama and Gyuki are completely extracted from them]] (you know, something that takes days to do for even the strongest ninja). All in all, leaves an extremely bad taste in your mouth how Kishimoto can't make one character strong and keep other strong characters around without the latter being turned into imbeciles.
to:
* Tropers/SuperSaiyaMan: Withdrawing my earlier entry for this. Chapters 659-661. AKA how Kishimoto shows how much of a VillainSue Madara Uchiha has become. After an enjoyable, humbling [[spoiler:[[CurbstompBattle beatdown that Madara got from all nine Biju]], he suddenly turns the tide after retrieving one Rinnegan]]. Now normally, that wouldn't be a big deal. But then [[spoiler:the Biju don't press the attack and keep operating under the assumption of TalkingIsAFreeAction. Thus, they all get knocked the fuck back by Madara without any sort of retaliation and immediately put on 'leashes'.]] Then to make matters worse, what does the Alliance do? [[spoiler:Just stand there like morons and make no attempt to help. And that's not the worse of it, when the chains are put on none of the Biju even attempt to fight back or even anchor themselves (like Kurama did against Nagato's Shinra Tensei).]] And finally, despite Naruto and Bee's seals being at full strength, [[spoiler:Kurama and Gyuki are completely extracted from them]] (you know, something that takes days to do for even the strongest ninja). All in all, leaves an extremely bad taste in your mouth how Kishimoto can't make one character strong and keep other strong characters around without the latter being turned into imbeciles.
Changed line(s) 69 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/{{Woodguy}}: Madara Uchiha vs 5 Kage. Before this fight, Naruto was beginning to show some drop in quality, but at least there was a chance to end the series with a well made finale to make up for previous bad decisions in regards to storyline. We were about to see 5 kages united & going all out while Madara till that point was [[EvilIsCool well received]] for adding some suspense for finale. But instead of a well made fight, we saw kages being treated as a bunch of rookies who can't do any significant damage to Madara even after teaming up & going all out while Madara pulls one new trick after another out of his ass to the level that was not hinted for any human to reach, resulting in an anti climatic, offscreen finish. Not only this was the first step at turning Madara into a boring [[VillainSue villain sue]] who can't be defeated by anything the heroes bring or get, it completely destroyed the reputation of kages & the plot following this used too much [[ShockingSwerve shocking swerve]], derailed almost every important characters & took the story to the point that many long time fans now don't even care about story & rather mock it since it's easier to enjoy Naruto this way than seriously as before.
to:
* Tropers/{{Woodguy}}: Madara Uchiha vs 5 Kage. Before this fight, Naruto was beginning to show some drop in quality, but at least there was a chance to end the series with a well made finale to make up for previous bad decisions in regards to storyline. We were about to see 5 kages united & going all out while Madara till that point was [[EvilIsCool well received]] for adding some suspense for finale. But instead of a well made fight, we saw kages being treated as a bunch of rookies who can't do any significant damage to Madara even after teaming up & going all out while Madara pulls one new trick after another out of his ass to the level that was not hinted for any human to reach, resulting in an anti climatic, offscreen finish. Not only this was the first step at turning Madara into a boring [[VillainSue villain sue]] who can't be defeated by anything the heroes bring or get, it completely destroyed the reputation of kages & the plot following this used too much [[ShockingSwerve shocking swerve]], derailed almost every important characters & took the story to the point that many long time fans now don't even care about story & rather mock it since it's easier to enjoy Naruto this way than seriously as before.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 25,26 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/{{ms_hufflepuff2295}} : Naruto's fight with Kimimaro. He goes into demon fox mode, makes enough clones to fill up a football stadium, all in all it looks like this is gearing up to be an epic fight. And what happens? Naruto sends about 5-6 clones at Kimimaro at a time while all the others just stand and watch them get obliterated. Over and over and over again. It's one of the most boring fights in the series in this troper's opinion, and it showcases the worst traits of the anime - Inconsistent art style the whole time? Check. Obvious skimping on animation, to the point where it's distracting? Check. Naruto trying literally the same thing over and over again with no variation and being shocked when he's beaten back each time? Check. If throwing a few clones at the enemy didn't work the first time, Naruto, what makes you think they'll work the next fifteen times?
to:
* Tropers/{{ms_hufflepuff2295}} : Naruto's fight with Kimimaro. He goes into demon fox mode, makes enough clones to fill up a football stadium, all in all it looks like this is gearing up to be an epic fight. And what happens? Naruto sends about 5-6 clones at Kimimaro at a time while all the others just stand and watch them get obliterated. Over and over and over again. It's one of the most boring fights in the series in this troper's opinion, and it showcases the worst traits of the anime - Inconsistent art style the whole time? style, making Naruto look goofy? Check. Obvious skimping on animation, to the point where it's distracting? Check. Naruto trying literally the same thing over and over again with no variation and being shocked when he's beaten back each time? Check. If throwing a few clones at the enemy didn't work the first time, Naruto, what makes you think they'll work the next fifteen times?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 25,26 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/{{ms_hufflepuff2295}} : Naruto's fight with Kimimaro. He goes into demon fox mode, makes enough clones to fill up a football stadium, all in all it looks like this is gearing up to be an epic fight. And what happens? Naruto sends about 5-6 clones at Kimimaro at a time while all the others just stand and watch them get obliterated. Over and over and over again. It's one of the most boring fights in the series in this troper's opinion, and it showcases the worst traits of the anime - Inconsistent art style the whole time? Check. Obvious skimping on animation, to the point where it's distracting? Check. Naruto trying literally the same thing over and over again with no variation and being shocked when he's beaten back each time? Check.
to:
* Tropers/{{ms_hufflepuff2295}} : Naruto's fight with Kimimaro. He goes into demon fox mode, makes enough clones to fill up a football stadium, all in all it looks like this is gearing up to be an epic fight. And what happens? Naruto sends about 5-6 clones at Kimimaro at a time while all the others just stand and watch them get obliterated. Over and over and over again. It's one of the most boring fights in the series in this troper's opinion, and it showcases the worst traits of the anime - Inconsistent art style the whole time? Check. Obvious skimping on animation, to the point where it's distracting? Check. Naruto trying literally the same thing over and over again with no variation and being shocked when he's beaten back each time? Check.
Check. If throwing a few clones at the enemy didn't work the first time, Naruto, what makes you think they'll work the next fifteen times?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 25 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/{{Sageheart}}: The Kyuubi/Kurama [[spoiler:being magically just misunderstood the whole time.]] I don't know about anyone else (and I hope I'm not ranting on a headcanon especially), but to me, the Kyuubi was characterized as a villain, ready to maim and kill indiscriminately at the drop of a hat - intelligent, yes, friendly or concerned with others, no. It was always portrayed as murderous, vicious, and cruel, only ever helping Naruto to save its own hide. It really rubs me the wrong way that after all of the development towards its villany, the Kyuubi ends up [[spoiler:being a good guy tsundere just because Naruto has to be everybody's friend.]] Its current characterization, and buildup to it, strikes me as forced and bizarre, very much against the character I'd been seeing before.
to:
*Tropers/{{Sageheart}}: The Kyuubi/Kurama [[spoiler:being magically just misunderstood the whole time.]] I don't know about anyone else (and I hope I'm not ranting on a headcanon especially), but to me, the Kyuubi was characterized as a villain, ready to maim and kill indiscriminately at the drop of a hat - intelligent, yes, friendly or concerned with others, no. It was always portrayed as murderous, vicious, and cruel, only ever helping Naruto to save its own hide. It really rubs me the wrong way that after all of the development towards its villany, the Kyuubi ends up [[spoiler:being a good guy tsundere just because Naruto has to be everybody's friend.]] Its current characterization, and buildup to it, strikes me as forced and bizarre, very much against the character I'd been seeing before.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 35 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/MicoolTNT: The ending of the Hunt for the Bikochu Beetle Arc. The whole arc was a bit of a CrowningMomentOfIndifference for me, as I knew it was a {{filler}} where StatusQuoIsGod and FailureIsTheOnlyOption. I always suspected the Bikochu would smell the wrong thing and/or be stepped on, probably thanks to [[IdiotHero Naruto]], in the kind of ShaggyDogStory DownerEnding others can laugh at but always strikes me as a TearJerker. And I wasn't disappointed. [[spoiler: Really? Naruto farts on the Bikochu?]] The first [[spoiler: BottomOfTheBarrelJoke]] in the [[spoiler: fight against Kiba during the Chunin Exam]] was funny because of the perfect buildup and use of MoodWhiplash, but this one was just a DiabolusExMachina ResetButton that wasn't surprising, nor fucking funny. And, oh yeah, it turned [[spoiler: Hinata owning the Bee ninjas, and then Naruto's Rasengan against their leader's return]] into a NegatedMomentOfAwesome.
to:
* Tropers/MicoolTNT: The ending of the Hunt for the Bikochu Beetle Arc. The whole arc was a bit of a CrowningMomentOfIndifference DarthWiki/CrowningMomentOfIndifference for me, as I knew it was a {{filler}} where StatusQuoIsGod and FailureIsTheOnlyOption. I always suspected the Bikochu would smell the wrong thing and/or be stepped on, probably thanks to [[IdiotHero Naruto]], in the kind of ShaggyDogStory DownerEnding others can laugh at but always strikes me as a TearJerker. And I wasn't disappointed. [[spoiler: Really? Naruto farts on the Bikochu?]] The first [[spoiler: BottomOfTheBarrelJoke]] in the [[spoiler: fight against Kiba during the Chunin Exam]] was funny because of the perfect buildup and use of MoodWhiplash, but this one was just a DiabolusExMachina ResetButton that wasn't surprising, nor fucking funny. And, oh yeah, it turned [[spoiler: Hinata owning the Bee ninjas, and then Naruto's Rasengan against their leader's return]] into a NegatedMomentOfAwesome.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 57 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/{{ajr1218}}: Guy's fight against Madara, for two reasons: 1) The animation, and 2) the end result. Aside from the Night Guy, which turned out pretty [[AnimationBump kickass]] despite the Anime Time pace, Guy's prior 7th and 8th gate assaults were very poorly animated, made even more inexcusable by the months worth of filler beforehand. If Studio Pierrot were a respectable animation studio, they would have used the filler time to allow quality animators to do these very plot-critical scenes months in advance, rather that just [[CashCowFranchise milking the show]] and using their top animators for their shitty filler episodes. Secondly, the fact that Kishimoto made Guy's final kick connect [[ATeamFiring a few inches too far to the left]], completely sparing his heart and allowing his HealingFactor to kick in full gear, bringing him back to working order in a matter of seconds. Made even more insulting with Naruto coming in and overpowering Madara even faster than Guy, leading to the Tree ([[GiantSpaceFleaFromNowhere Kaguya's]] will) having Madara absorb it. Yes, even though there was a backup available for Madara, Guy's fight was copped out so that Naruto can steal the spotlight. Also, the way Naruto "healed" Guy is no better than [[RevengeOfTheSith the Sith's life-force stabilization]]. Guy was essentially [[AndIMustScream forced to live for 2 or so years of debilitating full-body 4th-degree burns that somehow managed to heal on their own]] (perhaps his time in the Infinite Tsukoyumi helped). Made even more insulting by the fact that Naruto has Kurama in him, known for its insane HealingFactor rivaling Madara's. Had Naruto used Kurama's power on Guy as well, he would have ended up in better shape... though at least 2 decades older due to the mass-scale cellular reconstruction.
to:
* Tropers/{{ajr1218}}: Guy's fight against Madara, for two reasons: 1) The animation, and 2) the end result. Aside from the Night Guy, which turned out pretty [[AnimationBump kickass]] despite the Anime Time pace, Guy's prior 7th and 8th gate assaults were very poorly animated, made even more inexcusable by the months worth of filler beforehand. If Studio Pierrot were a respectable animation studio, they would have used the filler time to allow quality animators to do these very plot-critical scenes months in advance, rather that just [[CashCowFranchise milking the show]] and using their top animators for their shitty filler episodes. Secondly, the fact that Kishimoto made Guy's final kick connect [[ATeamFiring a few inches too far to the left]], completely sparing his heart and allowing his HealingFactor to kick in full gear, bringing him back to working order in a matter of seconds. Made even more insulting with Naruto coming in and overpowering Madara even faster than Guy, leading to the Tree ([[GiantSpaceFleaFromNowhere Kaguya's]] will) having Madara absorb it. Yes, even though there was a backup available for Madara, Guy's fight was copped out so that Naruto can steal the spotlight. Also, the way Naruto "healed" Guy is no better than [[RevengeOfTheSith [[Film/RevengeOfTheSith the Sith's life-force stabilization]]. Guy was essentially [[AndIMustScream forced to live for 2 or so years of debilitating full-body 4th-degree burns that somehow managed to heal on their own]] (perhaps his time in the Infinite Tsukoyumi helped). Made even more insulting by the fact that Naruto has Kurama in him, known for its insane HealingFactor rivaling Madara's. Had Naruto used Kurama's power on Guy as well, he would have ended up in better shape... though at least 2 decades older due to the mass-scale cellular reconstruction.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Neutralizing capslock, boldface and needless italicization.
Changed line(s) 57 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/{{ajr1218}}: Guy's fight against Madara, for two reasons: 1) The animation, and 2) the end result. Aside from the Night Guy, which turned out pretty [[AnimationBump kickass]] despite the Anime Time pace, Guy's prior 7th and 8th gate assaults were '''very''' poorly animated, made even more inexcusable by the months worth of filler beforehand. If Studio Pierrot were a respectable animation studio, they would have used the filler time to allow quality animators to do these ''very plot-critical'' scenes months in advance, rather that just [[CashCowFranchise milking the show]] and using their top animators for their shitty filler episodes. Secondly, the fact that Kishimoto made Guy's final kick connect [[ATeamFiring a few inches too far to the left]], completely sparing his heart and allowing his HealingFactor to kick in full gear, bringing him back to working order in a matter of seconds. Made even more insulting with Naruto coming in and overpowering Madara even faster than Guy, leading to the Tree ([[GiantSpaceFleaFromNowhere Kaguya's]] will) having Madara absorb it. Yes, even though there was a backup available for Madara, Guy's fight was copped out so that Naruto can steal the spotlight. Also, the way Naruto "healed" Guy is no better than [[RevengeOfTheSith the Sith's life-force stabilization]]. Guy was essentially [[AndIMustScream forced to live for 2 or so years of debilitating full-body 4th-degree burns that somehow managed to heal on their own]] (perhaps his time in the Infinite Tsukoyumi helped). Made even more insulting by the fact that Naruto has Kurama in him, known for its insane HealingFactor rivaling Madara's. Had Naruto used Kurama's power on Guy as well, he would have ended up in better shape... though at least 2 decades older due to the mass-scale cellular reconstruction.
to:
* Tropers/{{ajr1218}}: Guy's fight against Madara, for two reasons: 1) The animation, and 2) the end result. Aside from the Night Guy, which turned out pretty [[AnimationBump kickass]] despite the Anime Time pace, Guy's prior 7th and 8th gate assaults were '''very''' very poorly animated, made even more inexcusable by the months worth of filler beforehand. If Studio Pierrot were a respectable animation studio, they would have used the filler time to allow quality animators to do these ''very plot-critical'' very plot-critical scenes months in advance, rather that just [[CashCowFranchise milking the show]] and using their top animators for their shitty filler episodes. Secondly, the fact that Kishimoto made Guy's final kick connect [[ATeamFiring a few inches too far to the left]], completely sparing his heart and allowing his HealingFactor to kick in full gear, bringing him back to working order in a matter of seconds. Made even more insulting with Naruto coming in and overpowering Madara even faster than Guy, leading to the Tree ([[GiantSpaceFleaFromNowhere Kaguya's]] will) having Madara absorb it. Yes, even though there was a backup available for Madara, Guy's fight was copped out so that Naruto can steal the spotlight. Also, the way Naruto "healed" Guy is no better than [[RevengeOfTheSith the Sith's life-force stabilization]]. Guy was essentially [[AndIMustScream forced to live for 2 or so years of debilitating full-body 4th-degree burns that somehow managed to heal on their own]] (perhaps his time in the Infinite Tsukoyumi helped). Made even more insulting by the fact that Naruto has Kurama in him, known for its insane HealingFactor rivaling Madara's. Had Naruto used Kurama's power on Guy as well, he would have ended up in better shape... though at least 2 decades older due to the mass-scale cellular reconstruction.
Changed line(s) 60 (click to see context) from:
* @/ArcaneAzmadi: It's hard to pinpoint the ''precise'' moment that this manga irredeemably went to the dogs, but Kaguya being revealed to be [[TheManBehindTheMan The Woman Behind The Man Behind The Man Behind The Man]] behind everything was the last straw. Hey Kishimoto? Did anyone point out to you that you did this ''twice'' already? First Tobi was The Man Behind Pain, then Madara (the real one) was the man behind Tobi and now, after revealing that Madara was (implausibly) behind almost every single event in the series, you flip him over to reveal that OOPS! he was just a pawn of Kaguya. But that's not the worst thing. No, the worst thing is the Kaguya reveal combined with the absurd bullshit that is the reveal that Naruto and Sasuke are the reincarnations of Indra and Asura. With one stroke, Kishimoto has literally rendered the entire series a ShaggyDogStory! Now the only characters who matter are the ones who were dead for centuries before the manga even began! From a plot perspective Naruto and Sasuke aren't even characters any more, they're just character-shaped pieces to be plugged into Indra- and Asura-shaped receptacles crafted for them by destiny. None of their achievements, none of the skills they've worked so hard to gain matter because they have roles pre-set for them to fill. And the series has literally discarded ''every'' single precept that once made it worth reading. Guts, heart and hard work are more important than natural talent and bloodline? Nope, that's been inverted to the ultimate degree with the plot twist that Naruto and Sasuke get their ultimate powers literally handed to them because of their past lives and the last 2 "normal" characters left standing, Sakura and Kakashi, get literally told to their faces that they're useless! There is no fate but what we make? Nope, this entire plot is just a reenactment of an ancient battle by ancient personas which has nothing to do with any of the actual people involved (looks like Neji was right all along)! This truly marked the stage where ''Naruto'' stopped being ''Naruto'' and became a horrible TrollFic of itself; seriously it's starting to make ''FanFic/NaretoTheScretOfShiobi'' look good by comparison! Possibly the best summary of the current situation was provided by a fellow forum-goer on a manga forum I frequent:
to:
* @/ArcaneAzmadi: It's hard to pinpoint the ''precise'' precise moment that this manga irredeemably went to the dogs, but Kaguya being revealed to be [[TheManBehindTheMan The Woman Behind The Man Behind The Man Behind The Man]] behind everything was the last straw. Hey Kishimoto? Did anyone point out to you that you did this ''twice'' twice already? First Tobi was The Man Behind Pain, then Madara (the real one) was the man behind Tobi and now, after revealing that Madara was (implausibly) behind almost every single event in the series, you flip him over to reveal that OOPS! he was just a pawn of Kaguya. But that's not the worst thing. No, the worst thing is the Kaguya reveal combined with the absurd bullshit that is the reveal that Naruto and Sasuke are the reincarnations of Indra and Asura. With one stroke, Kishimoto has literally rendered the entire series a ShaggyDogStory! Now the only characters who matter are the ones who were dead for centuries before the manga even began! From a plot perspective Naruto and Sasuke aren't even characters any more, they're just character-shaped pieces to be plugged into Indra- and Asura-shaped receptacles crafted for them by destiny. None of their achievements, none of the skills they've worked so hard to gain matter because they have roles pre-set for them to fill. And the series has literally discarded ''every'' single precept that once made it worth reading. Guts, heart and hard work are more important than natural talent and bloodline? Nope, that's been inverted to the ultimate degree with the plot twist that Naruto and Sasuke get their ultimate powers literally handed to them because of their past lives and the last 2 "normal" characters left standing, Sakura and Kakashi, get literally told to their faces that they're useless! There is no fate but what we make? Nope, this entire plot is just a reenactment of an ancient battle by ancient personas which has nothing to do with any of the actual people involved (looks like Neji was right all along)! This truly marked the stage where ''Naruto'' stopped being ''Naruto'' and became a horrible TrollFic of itself; seriously it's starting to make ''FanFic/NaretoTheScretOfShiobi'' look good by comparison! Possibly the best summary of the current situation was provided by a fellow forum-goer on a manga forum I frequent:
Changed line(s) 66 (click to see context) from:
%%* Tropers/{{Lurkingal}}: I actually don't have a problem with most of the twists right now. I like Obito and Madara. My main problem is [[spoiler: HOW they are done. These characters' back-stories line up perfectly with their archetypes, roles, but the execution is SO THOROUGHLY LACKING. I mean seriously, Madara was once a lonely, hurt boy who wished for peace yet got so twisted by the world he turned into a generic villain sue? WTF Kishimoto! Back-stories are supposed to FLESH OUT a character's present actions, to make them seem more justified. Instead they give me a glimpse of a What Had Been character that's more interesting, sympathetic, and believable than this shit-talking trash I've been reading week after week. I can get behind that Madara and Obito are, underneath it all: two traumatized boys that just want to fuck over this fucked up world and create a dream-world that's all lovey-dovey happiness because, hell, as sad as it is, that is a very real human feeling. I can get behind the fact they pretend to be cackling maniacs to conceal the pain and instability they feel inside as their world crumbles around them. I can relate to this being a genetic disorder that runs in the family. I really could. However, take a page from Tom Hiddleton. SUBTEXT. They seem to enjoy or revel in their evil actions too much and there no subtext of "god, what have I done" until they've been [=TnJ=]'d by Naruto. It makes what should have been rich and tragic character development seem cheap and pointless. They aren't Old Yeller that's turned into a rabid dog that needs to be put down to preserve the memory of your old friend. It's like they were rabid dogs all along, and Hashirama and Kakashi are TooDumbToLive idiots who were idiots (Yes, I've used that word twice but the situation is so incredibly stupid it calls for non-ironic emphasis) for pretending otherwise. And the Sage, dear god the Sage, the fucking Sage. By stating that Indra and Asura were reincarnating themselves in Mada and Hashi then Naruto and Sasuke, and that they've been repeating the same cycle of destiny over and over. But wait! Madara is too crazy for Indra and actually BREAKS the cycle. What was the theme of Part 1 again? Screw destiny! Yet we're supposed to think the "screwing destiny" thing is crap now that Naruto and Sasuke are fulfilling the Sage's dreams/destiny? As many fans have noted, long before this troper did, Madara is the hero the story deserved]].%%
to:
%%* Tropers/{{Lurkingal}}: I actually don't have a problem with most of the twists right now. I like Obito and Madara. My main problem is [[spoiler: HOW [[spoiler:how they are done. These characters' back-stories line up perfectly with their archetypes, roles, but the execution is SO THOROUGHLY LACKING. thoroughly lacking. I mean seriously, Madara was once a lonely, hurt boy who wished for peace yet got so twisted by the world he turned into a generic villain sue? WTF Kishimoto! Back-stories are supposed to FLESH OUT flesh out a character's present actions, to make them seem more justified. Instead they give me a glimpse of a What Had Been character that's more interesting, sympathetic, and believable than this shit-talking trash I've been reading week after week. I can get behind that Madara and Obito are, underneath it all: two traumatized boys that just want to fuck over this fucked up world and create a dream-world that's all lovey-dovey happiness because, hell, as sad as it is, that is a very real human feeling. I can get behind the fact they pretend to be cackling maniacs to conceal the pain and instability they feel inside as their world crumbles around them. I can relate to this being a genetic disorder that runs in the family. I really could. However, take a page from Tom Hiddleton. SUBTEXT. Subtext! They seem to enjoy or revel in their evil actions too much and there no subtext of "god, what have I done" until they've been [=TnJ=]'d by Naruto. It makes what should have been rich and tragic character development seem cheap and pointless. They aren't Old Yeller that's turned into a rabid dog that needs to be put down to preserve the memory of your old friend. It's like they were rabid dogs all along, and Hashirama and Kakashi are TooDumbToLive idiots who were idiots (Yes, I've used that word twice but the situation is so incredibly stupid it calls for non-ironic emphasis) for pretending otherwise. And the Sage, dear god the Sage, the fucking Sage. By stating that Indra and Asura were reincarnating themselves in Mada and Hashi then Naruto and Sasuke, and that they've been repeating the same cycle of destiny over and over. But wait! Madara is too crazy for Indra and actually BREAKS breaks the cycle. What was the theme of Part 1 again? Screw destiny! Yet we're supposed to think the "screwing destiny" thing is crap now that Naruto and Sasuke are fulfilling the Sage's dreams/destiny? As many fans have noted, long before this troper did, Madara is the hero the story deserved]].%%
Changed line(s) 81,82 (click to see context) from:
** Doctor Sleep: Just the fact that Sakura and Ino get '''zero''' character development in terms of romance makes them look hopeless. Sasuke learns to love Sakura, Naruto learns to love Hinata, but Sakura still picks Sasuke over Lee while Ino compensates with Sai, who looks exactly like Sasuke. It sends out a message that girls should keep pining for their ideal man and ignore the guys out there who'll genuinely appreciate them.
* Nyame: Kaguya. For almost a decade we've designated Uchiha Madara (both real and fake) as the true BigBad, only for ''both'' to be usurped by someone who wasn't introduced to us until, at the most, '''''forty chapters ago'''''. To top it off, it's a GenericDoomsdayVillain with absolutely little to no characterization or any discernible motivations besides WithGreatPowerComesGreatInsanity. Say what you want about Tobi and Madara, but at least they had personalities, no matter how overpowered they ended up becoming. There was little to no foreshadowing about this happening, and the justifications for it came off as weak, if not downright impossible. Perhaps the only saving grace is that she lasted only ten chapters and that the final BigBad position went to Sasuke.
* Nyame: Kaguya. For almost a decade we've designated Uchiha Madara (both real and fake) as the true BigBad, only for ''both'' to be usurped by someone who wasn't introduced to us until, at the most, '''''forty chapters ago'''''. To top it off, it's a GenericDoomsdayVillain with absolutely little to no characterization or any discernible motivations besides WithGreatPowerComesGreatInsanity. Say what you want about Tobi and Madara, but at least they had personalities, no matter how overpowered they ended up becoming. There was little to no foreshadowing about this happening, and the justifications for it came off as weak, if not downright impossible. Perhaps the only saving grace is that she lasted only ten chapters and that the final BigBad position went to Sasuke.
to:
** Doctor Sleep: Just the fact that Sakura and Ino get '''zero''' zero character development in terms of romance makes them look hopeless. Sasuke learns to love Sakura, Naruto learns to love Hinata, but Sakura still picks Sasuke over Lee while Ino compensates with Sai, who looks exactly like Sasuke. It sends out a message that girls should keep pining for their ideal man and ignore the guys out there who'll genuinely appreciate them.
* Nyame: Kaguya. For almost a decade we've designated Uchiha Madara (both real and fake) as the true BigBad, only for''both'' both to be usurped by someone who wasn't introduced to us until, at the most, '''''forty a whopping forty chapters ago'''''.ago. To top it off, it's a GenericDoomsdayVillain with absolutely little to no characterization or any discernible motivations besides WithGreatPowerComesGreatInsanity. Say what you want about Tobi and Madara, but at least they had personalities, no matter how overpowered they ended up becoming. There was little to no foreshadowing about this happening, and the justifications for it came off as weak, if not downright impossible. Perhaps the only saving grace is that she lasted only ten chapters and that the final BigBad position went to Sasuke.
* Nyame: Kaguya. For almost a decade we've designated Uchiha Madara (both real and fake) as the true BigBad, only for
Changed line(s) 88 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/{{HeartlessandSoulless}}: Before the battle with Kakuzu, Kakashi teaches Naruto that doing training while using the kage bunshin jutsu is WAY faster (1 person = 1 hour of training and 1 person + 1 clone = 2 hours of training) and more effective; and if that were not enough, he specifically said that Naruto was the only one that could do it, because he has absurd amounts of chakra (ergo, he already knew about how the Uzumaki lineage/clan was special). I didn't pay this much mind until way after I was done with the manga, but as soon as it hit me, I was like: "WHAT THE FUCK, KAKASHI? Why the hell didn't you teach this to Naruto before, you bastard? Didn't you thought it would ever be useful?". This is what actually broke the illusion of the Naruto manga to me. Sure, it has its cool moments, but I can never take it seriously as a narrative again.
to:
* Tropers/{{HeartlessandSoulless}}: Before the battle with Kakuzu, Kakashi teaches Naruto that doing training while using the kage bunshin jutsu is WAY way faster (1 person = 1 hour of training and 1 person + 1 clone = 2 hours of training) and more effective; and if that were not enough, he specifically said that Naruto was the only one that could do it, because he has absurd amounts of chakra (ergo, he already knew about how the Uzumaki lineage/clan was special). I didn't pay this much mind until way after I was done with the manga, but as soon as it hit me, I was like: "WHAT THE FUCK, KAKASHI? "What the flying fuck, Kakashi? Why the hell didn't you teach this to Naruto before, you bastard? Didn't you thought it would ever be useful?". This is what actually broke the illusion of the Naruto manga to me. Sure, it has its cool moments, but I can never take it seriously as a narrative again.
Changed line(s) 90 (click to see context) from:
* Typos: During the Hidan and Kakuzu Arc, Team 7 convenes at Kakashi's bedside to talk about next steps for reaching Sasuke. Sakura reveals the research she's been doing and asks what they can do. Kakashi reveals training for Naruto that both he and Yamato will be helping him on... leaving absolutely no consideration or training at all for Sakura. Really? BOTH instructors need to work with Naruto, and neither can be spared for Sakura?! That was bad enough, but then it got worse: when Team 10 went to avenge Asuma, Team 7 went after them as backup. OK, cool, with the exception of Shikamaru, it looks like we're gonna have some teamwork, right...? Uh, NOPE! Naruto gives his "hazardous bridge" talk to Kakashi, which translates to saying "I need to defeat this enemy alone so as to show off my new jutsu, even though he's technically Team 10's quarry!" and Kakashi eye-crinkles and says yes! As in, they pissed all over their "teamwork" theme that Kakashi preaches and Team 10 usually embodies! That was when I realized that Kishimoto really and truly didn't give a damn about teamwork and favored out-of-nowhere power-ups over character development, and that's when the manga went down the dumper for me. Sadly, I was proven right as the rest of the manga progressed.
to:
* Typos: During the Hidan and Kakuzu Arc, Team 7 convenes at Kakashi's bedside to talk about next steps for reaching Sasuke. Sakura reveals the research she's been doing and asks what they can do. Kakashi reveals training for Naruto that both he and Yamato will be helping him on... leaving absolutely no consideration or training at all for Sakura. Really? BOTH Both instructors need to work with Naruto, and neither can be spared for Sakura?! That was bad enough, but then it got worse: when Team 10 went to avenge Asuma, Team 7 went after them as backup. OK, cool, with the exception of Shikamaru, it looks like we're gonna have some teamwork, right...? Uh, NOPE! nope! Naruto gives his "hazardous bridge" talk to Kakashi, which translates to saying "I need to defeat this enemy alone so as to show off my new jutsu, even though he's technically Team 10's quarry!" and Kakashi eye-crinkles and says yes! As in, they pissed all over their "teamwork" theme that Kakashi preaches and Team 10 usually embodies! That was when I realized that Kishimoto really and truly didn't give a damn about teamwork and favored out-of-nowhere power-ups over character development, and that's when the manga went down the dumper for me. Sadly, I was proven right as the rest of the manga progressed.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Changed line(s) 88 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/{{HeartlessandSoulless}}: Before the battle with Kakuzu, Kakashi teaches Naruto that doing training while using the kage bunshin jutsu is WAY faster (1 person = 1 hour of training and 1 person + 1 clone = 2 hours of training) and more effective; and if that were not enough, he specifically said that Naruto was the only one that could do it, because he has absurd amounts of chakra (ergo, he already knew about how the Uzumaki lineage/clan was special). I didn't pay this much mind until way after I was done with the manga, but as soon as it hit me, I was like: "[[WhatTheHellHero WHAT THE FUCK, KAKASHI]]? Why the hell didn't you teach this to Naruto before, you bastard? Didn't you thought it would ever be useful?". This is what actually broke the illusion of the Naruto manga to me. Sure, it has its cool moments, but I can never take it seriously as a narrative again.
to:
* Tropers/{{HeartlessandSoulless}}: Before the battle with Kakuzu, Kakashi teaches Naruto that doing training while using the kage bunshin jutsu is WAY faster (1 person = 1 hour of training and 1 person + 1 clone = 2 hours of training) and more effective; and if that were not enough, he specifically said that Naruto was the only one that could do it, because he has absurd amounts of chakra (ergo, he already knew about how the Uzumaki lineage/clan was special). I didn't pay this much mind until way after I was done with the manga, but as soon as it hit me, I was like: "[[WhatTheHellHero WHAT "WHAT THE FUCK, KAKASHI]]? KAKASHI? Why the hell didn't you teach this to Naruto before, you bastard? Didn't you thought it would ever be useful?". This is what actually broke the illusion of the Naruto manga to me. Sure, it has its cool moments, but I can never take it seriously as a narrative again.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Deleted line(s) 35 (click to see context) :
* [=ajr1218=]: Tobi's true identity. Note that I am not spoiling this as the answer is [[TheUntwist so goddamn obvious]] and so base-breaking that it almost ruined the entire series for me (and I enjoy this series a lot), but let's just say it was not only completely obvious, but utterly implausible. Congrats, Kishimoto, you have a lot of freakin' explaining to do.
Added DiffLines:
* Tropers/{{ajr1218}}: Guy's fight against Madara, for two reasons: 1) The animation, and 2) the end result. Aside from the Night Guy, which turned out pretty [[AnimationBump kickass]] despite the Anime Time pace, Guy's prior 7th and 8th gate assaults were '''very''' poorly animated, made even more inexcusable by the months worth of filler beforehand. If Studio Pierrot were a respectable animation studio, they would have used the filler time to allow quality animators to do these ''very plot-critical'' scenes months in advance, rather that just [[CashCowFranchise milking the show]] and using their top animators for their shitty filler episodes. Secondly, the fact that Kishimoto made Guy's final kick connect [[ATeamFiring a few inches too far to the left]], completely sparing his heart and allowing his HealingFactor to kick in full gear, bringing him back to working order in a matter of seconds. Made even more insulting with Naruto coming in and overpowering Madara even faster than Guy, leading to the Tree ([[GiantSpaceFleaFromNowhere Kaguya's]] will) having Madara absorb it. Yes, even though there was a backup available for Madara, Guy's fight was copped out so that Naruto can steal the spotlight. Also, the way Naruto "healed" Guy is no better than [[RevengeOfTheSith the Sith's life-force stabilization]]. Guy was essentially [[AndIMustScream forced to live for 2 or so years of debilitating full-body 4th-degree burns that somehow managed to heal on their own]] (perhaps his time in the Infinite Tsukoyumi helped). Made even more insulting by the fact that Naruto has Kurama in him, known for its insane HealingFactor rivaling Madara's. Had Naruto used Kurama's power on Guy as well, he would have ended up in better shape... though at least 2 decades older due to the mass-scale cellular reconstruction.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** {{Tropers/I Like Robots}}: I used to genuinely love this series. Early in its life ''Naruto'' caught my eye and felt like a breath of fresh air in comparison to other shonen series at the time. The series felt small, intimate and personal -- the stakes were relatively low in comparison to the planet-destroying conflicts of something like ''Manga/DragonBallZ'', the battles much more strategic than forceful, and the world more alive than other series I had read or seen. Naruto himself was a unique protagonist, in that he was the absolute ''epitome'' of ScrewDestiny, triumphing over genius and specially-powered person alike through sheer determination and will. The setup was great: Naruto was meant to be the hardworking everykid, unskilled and unrefined, without a special name or bloodline to fall back on, trying to make a name for himself in a world that either despised or looked down on him. Sasuke, as his {{foil}} and [[TheRival rival]] was meant to be the naturally talented one, the one with the prestigious bloodline and special powers. Granted, TheReveal that Naruto was the son of the Fourth Hokage started the trend of destroying the whole "Naruto is a normal kid" thing, and while the Nine-Tails gave him something of a leg up on others in the first place[[note]]Though it was lessened with the fact that he could not consciously control it at first[[/note]], it wasn't until the reveal that he is the reincarnation of Ashura and ''is'' in fact, part of a world- and ages-spanning prophecy that [[BrokenAesop the most important, central aesop of the series was torpedoed into oblivion]], and it all went downhill from there. Naruto and Sasuke kept getting special power up after special power up, the majority of other characters ceased being relevant due to being unable to come ''close'' to the marks set by Naruto and Sasuke, people started throwing mountain-sized attacks, flying, and the like, and it stopped even resembling the manga it had once been. Honestly, in my opinion, Kishimoto had a promising and interesting setup, but slowly drained ''Naruto'' of all of its good writing and entertainment value, not to mention its moral lessons. If Kishimoto wanted to avoid breaking his own aesop of "hard work trumps natural talent" and "ordinary people can be just as, if not more, powerful than those with special abilities," then [[BadassNormal Rock Lee]] should have been the protagonist of the series. [[ButtMonkey And we all know how the series treats him.]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
* Typos: During the Hidan and Kakuzu Arc, Team 7 convenes at Kakashi's bedside to talk about next steps for reaching Sasuke. Sakura reveals the research she's been doing and asks what they can do. Kakashi reveals training for Naruto that both he and Yamato will be helping him on... leaving absolutely no consideration or training at all for Sakura. Really? BOTH instructors need to work with Naruto, and neither can be spared for Sakura?! That was bad enough, but then it got worse: when Team 10 went to avenge Asuma, Team 7 went after them as backup. OK, cool, with the exception of Shikamaru, it looks like we're gonna have some teamwork, right...? Uh, NOPE! Naruto gives his "hazardous bridge" talk to Kakashi, which translates to saying "I need to defeat this enemy alone so as to show off my new jutsu, even though he's technically Team 10's quarry!" and Kakashi eye-crinkles and says yes! As in, they pissed all over their "teamwork" theme that Kakashi preaches and Team 10 usually embodies! That was when I realized that Kishimoto really and truly didn't give a damn about teamwork and favored out-of-nowhere power-ups over character development, and that's when the manga went down the dumper for me. Sadly, I was proven right as the rest of the manga progressed.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 45 (click to see context) from:
* [=KantonKage=]: Chapter 9 of ''Manga/RockLeesSpringtimeOfYouth'' was simply turning Hinata into TheChewToy; she gets peed on, having multiple people crash into her, she's also in her AscendedFanon {{Flanderization}} meaning she passes out when she sees Naruto at the end. Who gets attacked by Neji for no reason.
to:
* [=KantonKage=]: Chapter 9 of ''Manga/RockLeesSpringtimeOfYouth'' Tropers/{{KantonKage}}: I was simply turning Hinata into TheChewToy; she gets peed on, having multiple people crash into her, she's also in her AscendedFanon {{Flanderization}} meaning she passes out when she sees Naruto at hard pressed to see which Uchiha redemption story I found to be complete bullshit. Then it hit me, it was Hashirama calling Itachi's better than him, seriously [[PunctuatedForEmphasis What! The! Fuck!]]. So all of a sudden the end. Who gets attacked by Neji guy who {{Mind Rape}}d his brother for no reason.three days straight twice and killed his girlfriend. Yet for some reason, he is this saintly hero who sacrificed everything for our sins.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 34,35 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/RayneCyro: [[{{Asspull}} The Great Snake Escape.]] Let's run through the checklist: Killing off my favorite Akatsuki character not named Pain? Check. Having him die pointlessly? Check. Having him lose to [[BaseBreaker Sasuke?]] Check. Having Sasuke win by breaking the established rules of canon and pulling off something that shouldn't be possible for even the Fourth Hokage? Check.
* [=ajr1218=]: Tobi's true identity. Note that I am not spoiling this as the answer is [[TheUntwist so goddamn obvious]] and so [[BaseBreaker base-breaking]] that it almost ruined the entire series for me (and I enjoy this series a lot), but let's just say it was not only completely obvious, but utterly implausible. Congrats, Kishimoto, you have a lot of freakin' explaining to do.
* [=ajr1218=]: Tobi's true identity. Note that I am not spoiling this as the answer is [[TheUntwist so goddamn obvious]] and so [[BaseBreaker base-breaking]] that it almost ruined the entire series for me (and I enjoy this series a lot), but let's just say it was not only completely obvious, but utterly implausible. Congrats, Kishimoto, you have a lot of freakin' explaining to do.
to:
* Tropers/RayneCyro: [[{{Asspull}} The Great Snake Escape.]] Let's run through the checklist: Killing off my favorite Akatsuki character not named Pain? Check. Having him die pointlessly? Check. Having him lose to [[BaseBreaker [[BaseBreakingCharacter Sasuke?]] Check. Having Sasuke win by breaking the established rules of canon and pulling off something that shouldn't be possible for even the Fourth Hokage? Check.
* [=ajr1218=]: Tobi's true identity. Note that I am not spoiling this as the answer is [[TheUntwist so goddamn obvious]] and so[[BaseBreaker base-breaking]] base-breaking that it almost ruined the entire series for me (and I enjoy this series a lot), but let's just say it was not only completely obvious, but utterly implausible. Congrats, Kishimoto, you have a lot of freakin' explaining to do.
* [=ajr1218=]: Tobi's true identity. Note that I am not spoiling this as the answer is [[TheUntwist so goddamn obvious]] and so
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 1,3 (click to see context) from:
%% Image removed per Image Pickin' thread: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1463170966093486300&page=1#12
%% Please start a new thread to discuss a new image.
%% Please start a new thread to discuss a new image.
to:
%%
%%
%% STAFF NOTICE
%%
%% Image removed per Image Pickin' thread: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1463170966093486300&page=1#12
php?discussion=1463170966093486300
%%
%%Please start a new thread Per the above thread, please do not add an image to discuss a new image.
this page. Thank you.
%%
%%
%%
%% STAFF NOTICE
%%
%% Image removed per Image Pickin' thread: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.
%%
%%
%%
%%
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 1,2 (click to see context) from:
[[quoteright:350:http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/hgd_2640.jpg]][[caption-width-right:350:Believe it? I couldn't believe it one bit.]]
to:
%% Please start a new thread to discuss a new image.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 78 (click to see context) from:
* [=JediMasterDraco=]: The last couple episodes of Pein's invasion are pure torture. Up until then, we'd seen Naruto kicking butt and using his brains and then Hinata comes in, not to fight Pein directly, but too fight him off long enough to free Naruto. This leads to her being defeated, almost killed, and Naruto going up to six-tails in rage. And then the fight scene, which should have been a beautiful moment to express just how much pain Naruto is in gets turned into something out of Tom and Jerry. Compare it to the last time Naruto allowed Kyuubi to take over ad tell me which one is better. Frickin ridiculous. And then we have Pein be instantly forgiven. Admittedly, it's more justified then in a lot of other cases in this series owing to him bringing all of Konoha's citizens back to life. Oh, and then Hinata's confession gets absolutely no resolution. It's times like this when I understand why people drink.
to:
* [=JediMasterDraco=]: The last couple episodes of Pein's invasion are pure torture. Up until then, we'd seen Naruto kicking butt and using his brains and then Hinata comes in, not to fight Pein directly, but too to fight him off long enough to free Naruto. This leads to her being defeated, almost killed, and Naruto going up to six-tails in rage. And then the fight scene, which should have been a beautiful moment to express just how much pain Naruto is in gets turned into something out of Tom and Jerry. Compare it to the last time Naruto allowed Kyuubi to take over ad and tell me which one is better. Frickin ridiculous. And then we have Pein be instantly forgiven. Admittedly, it's more justified then than in a lot of other cases in this series owing to him bringing all of Konoha's citizens back to life. Oh, and then Hinata's confession gets absolutely no resolution. It's times like this when I understand why people drink.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
* Retloclive: The ending of the Pain Invasion arc not acknowledging Hinata's attempt to save Naruto's life. Naruto returns to the village upon defeating Pain, he gets a hug from Sakura while the crowd cheers his return... and Hinata just stands and watches. Ya, thanks Kishi, way to make Naruto come off like an UngratefulBastard.
* [=JediMasterDraco=]: The last couple episodes of Pein's invasion are pure torture. Up until then, we'd seen Naruto kicking butt and using his brains and then Hinata comes in, not to fight Pein directly, but too fight him off long enough to free Naruto. This leads to her being defeated, almost killed, and Naruto going up to six-tails in rage. And then the fight scene, which should have been a beautiful moment to express just how much pain Naruto is in gets turned into something out of Tom and Jerry. Compare it to the last time Naruto allowed Kyuubi to take over ad tell me which one is better. Frickin ridiculous. And then we have Pein be instantly forgiven. Admittedly, it's more justified then in a lot of other cases in this series owing to him bringing all of Konoha's citizens back to life. Oh, and then Hinata's confession gets absolutely no resolution. It's times like this when I understand why people drink.
* Tropers/{{HeartlessandSoulless}}: Before the battle with Kakuzu, Kakashi teaches Naruto that doing training while using the kage bunshin jutsu is WAY faster (1 person = 1 hour of training and 1 person + 1 clone = 2 hours of training) and more effective; and if that were not enough, he specifically said that Naruto was the only one that could do it, because he has absurd amounts of chakra (ergo, he already knew about how the Uzumaki lineage/clan was special). I didn't pay this much mind until way after I was done with the manga, but as soon as it hit me, I was like: "[[WhatTheHellHero WHAT THE FUCK, KAKASHI]]? Why the hell didn't you teach this to Naruto before, you bastard? Didn't you thought it would ever be useful?". This is what actually broke the illusion of the Naruto manga to me. Sure, it has its cool moments, but I can never take it seriously as a narrative again.
* [=JediMasterDraco=]: The last couple episodes of Pein's invasion are pure torture. Up until then, we'd seen Naruto kicking butt and using his brains and then Hinata comes in, not to fight Pein directly, but too fight him off long enough to free Naruto. This leads to her being defeated, almost killed, and Naruto going up to six-tails in rage. And then the fight scene, which should have been a beautiful moment to express just how much pain Naruto is in gets turned into something out of Tom and Jerry. Compare it to the last time Naruto allowed Kyuubi to take over ad tell me which one is better. Frickin ridiculous. And then we have Pein be instantly forgiven. Admittedly, it's more justified then in a lot of other cases in this series owing to him bringing all of Konoha's citizens back to life. Oh, and then Hinata's confession gets absolutely no resolution. It's times like this when I understand why people drink.
* Tropers/{{HeartlessandSoulless}}: Before the battle with Kakuzu, Kakashi teaches Naruto that doing training while using the kage bunshin jutsu is WAY faster (1 person = 1 hour of training and 1 person + 1 clone = 2 hours of training) and more effective; and if that were not enough, he specifically said that Naruto was the only one that could do it, because he has absurd amounts of chakra (ergo, he already knew about how the Uzumaki lineage/clan was special). I didn't pay this much mind until way after I was done with the manga, but as soon as it hit me, I was like: "[[WhatTheHellHero WHAT THE FUCK, KAKASHI]]? Why the hell didn't you teach this to Naruto before, you bastard? Didn't you thought it would ever be useful?". This is what actually broke the illusion of the Naruto manga to me. Sure, it has its cool moments, but I can never take it seriously as a narrative again.
Deleted line(s) 78,80 (click to see context) :
* Retloclive: The ending of the Pain Invasion arc not acknowledging Hinata's attempt to save Naruto's life. Naruto returns to the village upon defeating Pain, he gets a hug from Sakura while the crowd cheers his return...and Hinata just stands and watches. Ya, thanks Kishi, way to make Naruto come off like an UngratefulBastard.
* [=JediMasterDraco=]: The last couple episodes of Pein's invasion are pure torture. Up until then, we'd seen Naruto kicking butt and using his brains and then Hinata comes in, not to fight Pein directly, but too fight him off long enough to free Naruto. This leads to her being defeated, almost killed, and Naruto going up to six-tails in rage. And then the fight scene, which should have been a beautiful moment to express just how much pain Naruto is in gets turned into something out of Tom and Jerry. Compare it to the last time Naruto allowed Kyuubi to take over ad tell me which one is better. Frickin ridiculous. And then we have Pein be instantly forgiven. Admittedly, it's more justified then in a lot of other cases in this series owing to him bringing all of Konoha's citizens back to life. Oh, and then Hinata's confession gets absolutely no resolution. It's times like this when I understand why people drink.
* Tropers/{{HeartlessandSoulless}}: Before the battle with Kakuzu, Kakashi teaches Naruto that doing training while using the kage bunshin jutsu is WAY faster (1 person = 1 hour of training and 1 person + 1 clone = 2 hours of training) and more effective; and if that were not enough, he specifically said that Naruto was the only one that could do it, because he has absurd amounts of chakra (ergo, he already knew about how the Uzumaki lineage/clan was special). I didn't pay this much mind until way after I was done with the manga, but as soon as it hit me, I was like: "[[WhatTheHellHero WHAT THE FUCK, KAKASHI]]? Why the hell didn't you teach this to Naruto before, you bastard? Didn't you thought it would ever be useful?". This is what actually broke the illusion of the Naruto manga to me. Sure, it has its cool moments, but I can never take it seriously as a narrative again.
* [=JediMasterDraco=]: The last couple episodes of Pein's invasion are pure torture. Up until then, we'd seen Naruto kicking butt and using his brains and then Hinata comes in, not to fight Pein directly, but too fight him off long enough to free Naruto. This leads to her being defeated, almost killed, and Naruto going up to six-tails in rage. And then the fight scene, which should have been a beautiful moment to express just how much pain Naruto is in gets turned into something out of Tom and Jerry. Compare it to the last time Naruto allowed Kyuubi to take over ad tell me which one is better. Frickin ridiculous. And then we have Pein be instantly forgiven. Admittedly, it's more justified then in a lot of other cases in this series owing to him bringing all of Konoha's citizens back to life. Oh, and then Hinata's confession gets absolutely no resolution. It's times like this when I understand why people drink.
* Tropers/{{HeartlessandSoulless}}: Before the battle with Kakuzu, Kakashi teaches Naruto that doing training while using the kage bunshin jutsu is WAY faster (1 person = 1 hour of training and 1 person + 1 clone = 2 hours of training) and more effective; and if that were not enough, he specifically said that Naruto was the only one that could do it, because he has absurd amounts of chakra (ergo, he already knew about how the Uzumaki lineage/clan was special). I didn't pay this much mind until way after I was done with the manga, but as soon as it hit me, I was like: "[[WhatTheHellHero WHAT THE FUCK, KAKASHI]]? Why the hell didn't you teach this to Naruto before, you bastard? Didn't you thought it would ever be useful?". This is what actually broke the illusion of the Naruto manga to me. Sure, it has its cool moments, but I can never take it seriously as a narrative again.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Adding content
Added DiffLines:
* Tropers/{{HeartlessandSoulless}}: Before the battle with Kakuzu, Kakashi teaches Naruto that doing training while using the kage bunshin jutsu is WAY faster (1 person = 1 hour of training and 1 person + 1 clone = 2 hours of training) and more effective; and if that were not enough, he specifically said that Naruto was the only one that could do it, because he has absurd amounts of chakra (ergo, he already knew about how the Uzumaki lineage/clan was special). I didn't pay this much mind until way after I was done with the manga, but as soon as it hit me, I was like: "[[WhatTheHellHero WHAT THE FUCK, KAKASHI]]? Why the hell didn't you teach this to Naruto before, you bastard? Didn't you thought it would ever be useful?". This is what actually broke the illusion of the Naruto manga to me. Sure, it has its cool moments, but I can never take it seriously as a narrative again.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
* [=JediMasterDraco=]: The last couple episodes of Pein's invasion are pure torture. Up until then, we'd seen Naruto kicking butt and using his brains and then Hinata comes in, not to fight Pein directly, but too fight him off long enough to free Naruto. This leads to her being defeated, almost killed, and Naruto going up to six-tails in rage. And then the fight scene, which should have been a beautiful moment to express just how much pain Naruto is in gets turned into something out of Tom and Jerry. Compare it to the last time Naruto allowed Kyuubi to take over ad tell me which one is better. Frickin ridiculous. And then we have Pein be instantly forgiven. Admittedly, it's more justified then in a lot of other cases in this series owing to him bringing all of Konoha's citizens back to life. Oh, and then Hinata's confession gets absolutely no resolution. It's times like this when I understand why people drink.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 78 (click to see context) from:
* Retloclive: The ending of the Pain Invasion arc not acknowledging Hinata's attempt to save Naruto's life. Naruto returns to the village upon defeating Pain, he gets a hug from Sakura while the crowd cheers his return...and Hinata just stands and watches. Ya, [[UngratefulBastard way to be thankful Naruto]].
to:
* Retloclive: The ending of the Pain Invasion arc not acknowledging Hinata's attempt to save Naruto's life. Naruto returns to the village upon defeating Pain, he gets a hug from Sakura while the crowd cheers his return...and Hinata just stands and watches. Ya, [[UngratefulBastard thanks Kishi, way to be thankful Naruto]].make Naruto come off like an UngratefulBastard.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 78 (click to see context) from:
* Retloclive: The ending of the Pain Invasion arc. Earlier, Hinata risked her life to save Naruto from being taken away by Pain. However, after Naruto returns to the village upon defeating Pain, he gets a hug from Sakura while the crowd cheers his return...while Hinata just stands and watches. Ya, [[UngratefulBastard way to be thankful Naruto]].
to:
* Retloclive: The ending of the Pain Invasion arc. Earlier, Hinata risked her life arc not acknowledging Hinata's attempt to save Naruto from being taken away by Pain. However, after Naruto's life. Naruto returns to the village upon defeating Pain, he gets a hug from Sakura while the crowd cheers his return...while and Hinata just stands and watches. Ya, [[UngratefulBastard way to be thankful Naruto]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
More precise example.
Deleted line(s) 77 (click to see context) :
%%* Retloclive: The original anime series capping off their run with a plethora of overly-bad {{Filler}} episodes will always be mind-boggling to me since it still ended up not being enough to solve the current issue of giving the manga more breathing room. After the 80+ episodes of filler hell were finally done with, the first canon arcs for Naruto Shippuden ended up suffering some of the worst pacing and animation seen throughout the series anyway, so it just makes you wonder why they the producers didn't just decide to go on hiatus in order to better prepare themselves for the next canon arc.%%
Added DiffLines:
* Retloclive: The ending of the Pain Invasion arc. Earlier, Hinata risked her life to save Naruto from being taken away by Pain. However, after Naruto returns to the village upon defeating Pain, he gets a hug from Sakura while the crowd cheers his return...while Hinata just stands and watches. Ya, [[UngratefulBastard way to be thankful Naruto]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
One moment per troper, any more recent ones will be cut
Changed line(s) 34 (click to see context) from:
** Ashleybud: Chapter 619 is a definite DarthWiki/DethroningMomentOfSuck for me. I really hate Sasuke at this point and am getting real tired of Naruto in general, which is sad because Masashi Kishimoto is a great writer but he has this CreatorsPet thing for Sasuke to the point of completely ignoring and rewriting canon in an effort to make him likeable. You've taken his character to a point where happily making up is literally impossible, so accept it and move on. But what really makes this a DMTS is this notion of the Uchiha gaining their power because they love too much. No other clan treasured love like the Uchiha is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. There is nothing, absolutely nothing to support this; in fact, evidence proves the complete opposite. First, let’s take a look at the requirements for the Mangekyō Sharingan: the first one we as the audience were told was that the Mangekyō Sharingan is awakened through the trauma experienced from the death of the person closest to the Sharingan user. With the user normally having to witness or experience this first hand, Uchiha throughout history have killed the person closest to them in order to expedite this process. To obtain the Mangekyō Sharingan, one must feel the emotion of losing a friend or family, as merely killing them or watching them die will not activate it. That’s not love being tainted, that is killing a loved one in order to gain power. Then, to gain the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan you have to take and transplant the Mangekyō of another Uchiha — integrating the two pairs of eyes in the process. Once again a sign of the Uchiha selfishly sacrificing a loved one to obtain power because the tighter the blood ties are between the "donor" and the "receiver", the better it is for compatibility — a sibling for example seems to make the best donor. And they only do this because over time, use of the Mangekyō Sharingan's techniques deteriorates the user's eyesight to the point of blindness. So not only do they abuse the power they gain from sacrificing a loved one to the point of killing themselves, they just sacrifice another one. And when you think about it the Uchiha rebelling because they were forced to live in separate quarters doesn’t make sense because every bloodlimit clan lives in their own separate areas in order to practice their techniques in secrets. They lived in opulent mansions, could continue to be ninja and ninja police, even a few being a Hokage Candidate's student. Hell, even Madara's story falls apart when we realize there WAS a Hokage Candidate who was a Uchiha in Hiruzen's time. Them wanting more governmental power falls on its face when they run the police. Heck, this entire war is because 1. Tobi wants revenge and 2. Madara wants to erase the fact that he lost from the face of the earth. It’s pretty obvious Sasuke is going to be forgiven somehow, but at least make it believable. If only the Third had told Sasuke that the curse of the Uchiha was that they were entitled assholes who believe everything should be handed to them. When they're not strong enough they take the skill from their opponent, and when that isn’t enough they kill a loved one for power. When they abuse that power they do it again. If that doesn’t work they bend reality to their wishes. And finally, when that doesn’t prove enough they seal opponents within their own mind. The Uchiha were willing to kill thousands upon thousands of innocent people because they felt they weren’t given enough and Sasuke’s actions up to now proves that the Third made the right decision. Sorry about the rant but I was so pissed that it took a while to put my thoughts into words.
to:
** Ashleybud: Chapter 619 is a definite DarthWiki/DethroningMomentOfSuck for me. I really hate Sasuke at this point and am getting real tired of Naruto in general, which is sad because Masashi Kishimoto is a great writer but he has this CreatorsPet thing for Sasuke to the point of completely ignoring and rewriting canon in an effort to make him likeable. You've taken his character to a point where happily making up is literally impossible, so accept it and move on. But what really makes this a DMTS is this notion of the Uchiha gaining their power because they love too much. No other clan treasured love like the Uchiha is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. There is nothing, absolutely nothing to support this; in fact, evidence proves the complete opposite. First, let’s take a look at the requirements for the Mangekyō Sharingan: the first one we as the audience were told was that the Mangekyō Sharingan is awakened through the trauma experienced from the death of the person closest to the Sharingan user. With the user normally having to witness or experience this first hand, Uchiha throughout history have killed the person closest to them in order to expedite this process. To obtain the Mangekyō Sharingan, one must feel the emotion of losing a friend or family, as merely killing them or watching them die will not activate it. That’s not love being tainted, that is killing a loved one in order to gain power. Then, to gain the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan you have to take and transplant the Mangekyō of another Uchiha — integrating the two pairs of eyes in the process. Once again a sign of the Uchiha selfishly sacrificing a loved one to obtain power because the tighter the blood ties are between the "donor" and the "receiver", the better it is for compatibility — — a sibling for example seems to make the best donor. And they only do this because over time, use of the Mangekyō Sharingan's techniques deteriorates the user's eyesight to the point of blindness. So not only do they abuse the power they gain from sacrificing a loved one to the point of killing themselves, they just sacrifice another one. And when you think about it the Uchiha rebelling because they were forced to live in separate quarters doesn’t make sense because every bloodlimit clan lives in their own separate areas in order to practice their techniques in secrets. They lived in opulent mansions, could continue to be ninja and ninja police, even a few being a Hokage Candidate's student. Hell, even Madara's story falls apart when we realize there WAS a Hokage Candidate who was a Uchiha in Hiruzen's time. Them wanting more governmental power falls on its face when they run the police. Heck, this entire war is because 1. Tobi wants revenge and 2. Madara wants to erase the fact that he lost from the face of the earth. It’s pretty obvious Sasuke is going to be forgiven somehow, but at least make it believable. If only the Third had told Sasuke that the curse of the Uchiha was that they were entitled assholes who believe everything should be handed to them. When they're not strong enough they take the skill from their opponent, and when that isn’t enough they kill a loved one for power. When they abuse that power they do it again. If that doesn’t work they bend reality to their wishes. And finally, when that doesn’t prove enough they seal opponents within their own mind. The Uchiha were willing to kill thousands upon thousands of innocent people because they felt they weren’t given enough and Sasuke’s actions up to now proves that the Third made the right decision. Sorry about the rant but I was so pissed that it took a while to put my thoughts into words.
Deleted line(s) 36 (click to see context) :
** FireShadow: And you know what the worst thing about that chapter is, it essentially turns Naruto into a [[FailureHero lousy protagonist who failed to fulfill the promise he kept from the end of part one of Naruto]] because the whole point of him going through the [[TrainingFromHell intense training regime with Jiraiya for two and a half years and for many hours with Killer B to control his Kyuubi Chakra Mode]], [[PoorCommunicationKills flat out defying orders and advice from his closest friends, allies and higher-ups before and during the Fourth Great Ninja War]] and when asked about Sasuke [[NonAnswer giving vague responses]] was so that he could be strong enough to face Sasuke by himself and convince him to come back to the village. Now all of that effort and determination has been undone and undermined and Kishimoto has once again let [[GodModeSue an reanimated character prove to be more significant and important to the progression of the story line in the spaces of a few chapters]] than the [[SpotlightStealingSquad main freaking character for the course of over half of the story!]] In hindsight, this also solidifies that [[HardWorkHardlyWorks words always speak louder than actions in the Naruto universe]] and all it really takes to change the world and convert evil to good is to have [[WordPower well developed and sophisticated talking skills]] [[HardWorkHardlyWorks rather than well developed and sophisticated jutsu or ninja skills.]]
Deleted line(s) 46 (click to see context) :
** FireShadow: The beautiful irony of [[spoiler:Minato letting Obito live]] was that in the next chapter, it lead to [[spoiler:Madara being revived, as when Obito was about to use the [[DeusExMachina Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique]] Black Zetsu, which was the will of Madara, [[GrandTheftMe hijacked and controlled Obito's body]] and then forced him to use the Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique to resurrect Madara.]] So in a nutshell, [[spoiler:Minato's idiotic decision of preventing Kakashi from killing Obito]] has now lead to [[spoiler:Madara being one step closer to becoming the new [[PhysicalGod Sage Of Six Paths]], as with a living body he can now absorb the power of the tailed beasts, which he was unable to do when he was reincarnated]]. [[NiceJobBreakingItHero Nice going,]] [[spoiler:Minato,]] the Ten-Tails Revival Arc is now dangerously close to becoming an IdiotPlot because of you.
Deleted line(s) 54 (click to see context) :
* [=KantonKage=]: Kaguya's appearance namely it became crystal clear that she and Black Zetsu were made be nothing more than pure {{Hate Sink}}s so he could have the Uchiha look like the "[[FreudianExcuse victims]]" and get the two biggest [[ItsAllAboutMe selfish]] pricks (Obito and Madara) be [[KarmaHoudini redeemed]] only because of the fact that they're [[CreatorsPet Uchiha]].
Deleted line(s) 76 (click to see context) :
** Bartzv: The same problem rears its head with Karin too. Sasuke actually did stab her (intentionally at that), and after she had declared that she was done with him, she instantly swoons after getting a weak "sorry" from him and rejoins him like nothing happened, completely undoing all that development. It comes off like Kishimoto doesn't understand a thing about women so he either doesn't give them any development (Ino, Kurenai, Konan) or writes them in a way that's unrealistic at best and at worst is loaded with UnfortunateImplications (Sakura and Karin).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Commenting out non-moments until they can be rewritten into a single moment
Changed line(s) 61 (click to see context) from:
* Tropers/{{Lurkingal}}: I actually don't have a problem with most of the twists right now. I like Obito and Madara. My main problem is [[spoiler: HOW they are done. These characters' back-stories line up perfectly with their archetypes, roles, but the execution is SO THOROUGHLY LACKING. I mean seriously, Madara was once a lonely, hurt boy who wished for peace yet got so twisted by the world he turned into a generic villain sue? WTF Kishimoto! Back-stories are supposed to FLESH OUT a character's present actions, to make them seem more justified. Instead they give me a glimpse of a What Had Been character that's more interesting, sympathetic, and believable than this shit-talking trash I've been reading week after week. I can get behind that Madara and Obito are, underneath it all: two traumatized boys that just want to fuck over this fucked up world and create a dream-world that's all lovey-dovey happiness because, hell, as sad as it is, that is a very real human feeling. I can get behind the fact they pretend to be cackling maniacs to conceal the pain and instability they feel inside as their world crumbles around them. I can relate to this being a genetic disorder that runs in the family. I really could. However, take a page from Tom Hiddleton. SUBTEXT. They seem to enjoy or revel in their evil actions too much and there no subtext of "god, what have I done" until they've been [=TnJ=]'d by Naruto. It makes what should have been rich and tragic character development seem cheap and pointless. They aren't Old Yeller that's turned into a rabid dog that needs to be put down to preserve the memory of your old friend. It's like they were rabid dogs all along, and Hashirama and Kakashi are TooDumbToLive idiots who were idiots (Yes, I've used that word twice but the situation is so incredibly stupid it calls for non-ironic emphasis) for pretending otherwise. And the Sage, dear god the Sage, the fucking Sage. By stating that Indra and Asura were reincarnating themselves in Mada and Hashi then Naruto and Sasuke, and that they've been repeating the same cycle of destiny over and over. But wait! Madara is too crazy for Indra and actually BREAKS the cycle. What was the theme of Part 1 again? Screw destiny! Yet we're supposed to think the "screwing destiny" thing is crap now that Naruto and Sasuke are fulfilling the Sage's dreams/destiny? As many fans have noted, long before this troper did, Madara is the hero the story deserved]].
to:
Changed line(s) 70,72 (click to see context) from:
* {{@/Hobgoblin}}: Really, just the entire way that Sakura is written throughout the series screams of this. Sure, she starts out as a fangirl for Sasuke because all of the girls were taken in with the cool and edgy Uchiha. Sure, eventually she starts to develop some feelings for him when he softens up during the Chunin Exam arc and becomes nicer. Sure, she holds out hope that he'll come back someday considering he didn't kill Naruto. But once Sasuke is introduced in Part II and starts hopping from villainous organization to villainous organization, that pining becomes almost insulting. Sakura plans to kill Sasuke at one point (and has no real techniques to do so despite three years of training, mind you) with a poisoned knife and no backup, despite the fact that he's an S-Ranked missing ninja, the fact that he is in the process of killing one of his comrades, and the fact that she's supposed to be pretty intelligent. And no matter how much worse Sasuke has gotten since then, badmouthing her and attempting to kill the Kages among other things, Sakura still holds onto this childish hope that they can still be together, to the point where a moment in Chapter 693 that should've been used to have her finally call him out on his nonsense is instead used to have her spout the same senseless diatribe that he'd turned down and ignored twice before. When a main character like Sakura fails to learn enough techniques to keep up with her allies, that's bad from a shonen sense because people start to see them as useless no matter what they contribute. But when a character proves to just epitomize nothing but negative traits overall, constantly being in danger, constantly being a slave to senseless emotions, never having any real victories after a few early story highlights, it just becomes a testament to how poorly that character is being written.
* TallTroper: For me, it's gotta be how Hamura Otsutsuki was used. Just the mere mention of him is TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter. Suddenly we find out that the Sage apparently had this brother who was literally came out of nowhere, yet apparently contributed nothing to the ninja world worth mentioning. Hagoromo, his own brother makes barely any mention of him at all. Making this even worse is that he's the one who inherited Byakugan, so you'd think that he'd been mentioned earlier similar to how Madara was within the story. Also through this, Kisimoto could have given major props to either Hinata or Neji in their development. Lastly, if anything, it throws the story into confusion because while it's at least somewhat tolerable that Naruto, who has one half of the Sage' power, Sasuke is the other half, but by accounts of Hamura's existence, it should be a Hyuuga instead.
* SeanRenad: Each new reveal of Naruto's heritage and fate. A lot of time is spend in Part 1 getting Naruto and to a lesser extent Rock Lee over as proof that hard work trumps good luck. Then we find out Naruto is the heir to not one but two powerful clans. One of them the Senju being equal to or superior to the Uchiha. The First, Second, Fourth and Fifth Hokage are all blood relation to give this some sort of scope. Jiraiya didn't take him under his wing because he saw something special in him, he did it because he's Naruto's Godfather. He believes he's the child of prophecy an old toad told him about. He's also the reincarnation of one of the sons of The Sage of Six Paths, the man who is credited with the creation of ninjutsu (who shows up and gives him more powers because of this fact). All the downsides of having a SuperPoweredEvilSide are eliminated and all pretense of this being an EnemyMine scenario are dropped over the course of a single battle. If the series had been about showing how even if you have good luck that you still need hard work it would be one thing. But instead by the end it's clear that yes, some people are just born better and you'll never compete on their level.
* TallTroper: For me, it's gotta be how Hamura Otsutsuki was used. Just the mere mention of him is TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter. Suddenly we find out that the Sage apparently had this brother who was literally came out of nowhere, yet apparently contributed nothing to the ninja world worth mentioning. Hagoromo, his own brother makes barely any mention of him at all. Making this even worse is that he's the one who inherited Byakugan, so you'd think that he'd been mentioned earlier similar to how Madara was within the story. Also through this, Kisimoto could have given major props to either Hinata or Neji in their development. Lastly, if anything, it throws the story into confusion because while it's at least somewhat tolerable that Naruto, who has one half of the Sage' power, Sasuke is the other half, but by accounts of Hamura's existence, it should be a Hyuuga instead.
* SeanRenad: Each new reveal of Naruto's heritage and fate. A lot of time is spend in Part 1 getting Naruto and to a lesser extent Rock Lee over as proof that hard work trumps good luck. Then we find out Naruto is the heir to not one but two powerful clans. One of them the Senju being equal to or superior to the Uchiha. The First, Second, Fourth and Fifth Hokage are all blood relation to give this some sort of scope. Jiraiya didn't take him under his wing because he saw something special in him, he did it because he's Naruto's Godfather. He believes he's the child of prophecy an old toad told him about. He's also the reincarnation of one of the sons of The Sage of Six Paths, the man who is credited with the creation of ninjutsu (who shows up and gives him more powers because of this fact). All the downsides of having a SuperPoweredEvilSide are eliminated and all pretense of this being an EnemyMine scenario are dropped over the course of a single battle. If the series had been about showing how even if you have good luck that you still need hard work it would be one thing. But instead by the end it's clear that yes, some people are just born better and you'll never compete on their level.
to:
*
%%* TallTroper: For me, it's gotta be how Hamura Otsutsuki was used. Just the mere mention of him is TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter. Suddenly we find out that the Sage apparently had this brother who was literally came out of nowhere, yet apparently contributed nothing to the ninja world worth mentioning. Hagoromo, his own brother makes barely any mention of him at all. Making this even worse is that he's the one who inherited Byakugan, so you'd think that he'd been mentioned earlier similar to how Madara was within the story. Also through this, Kisimoto could have given major props to either Hinata or Neji in their development. Lastly, if anything, it throws the story into confusion because while it's at least somewhat tolerable that Naruto, who has one half of the Sage' power, Sasuke is the other half, but by accounts of Hamura's existence, it should be a Hyuuga
*
%%* SeanRenad: Each new reveal of Naruto's heritage and fate. A lot of time is spend in Part 1 getting Naruto and to a lesser extent Rock Lee over as proof that hard work trumps good luck. Then we find out Naruto is the heir to not one but two powerful clans. One of them the Senju being equal to or superior to the Uchiha. The First, Second, Fourth and Fifth Hokage are all blood relation to give this some sort of scope. Jiraiya didn't take him under his wing because he saw something special in him, he did it because he's Naruto's Godfather. He believes he's the child of prophecy an old toad told him about. He's also the reincarnation of one of the sons of The Sage of Six Paths, the man who is credited with the creation of ninjutsu (who shows up and gives him more powers because of this fact). All the downsides of having a SuperPoweredEvilSide are eliminated and all pretense of this being an EnemyMine scenario are dropped over the course of a single battle. If the series had been about showing how even if you have good luck that you still need hard work it would be one thing. But instead by the end it's clear that yes, some people are just born better and you'll never compete on their level.%%
Changed line(s) 81 (click to see context) from:
* Retloclive: The original anime series capping off their run with a plethora of overly-bad {{Filler}} episodes will always be mind-boggling to me since it still ended up not being enough to solve the current issue of giving the manga more breathing room. After the 80+ episodes of filler hell were finally done with, the first canon arcs for Naruto Shippuden ended up suffering some of the worst pacing and animation seen throughout the series anyway, so it just makes you wonder why they the producers didn't just decide to go on hiatus in order to better prepare themselves for the next canon arc.
to:
