This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Working Title: Voodoo Shark: From YKTTW
The Bad Wolf: How is this not just Hand Wave or Ass Pull but The Same But More, more so isn't this article just Complaining About Shows You Don't Like
Falcon Pain: The trope appears to be "a Hand Wave of a plot oddity that creates an equally problematic oddity". Not The Same But More, but it could be accused of "Trope Done Wrong". As for CASYDL, whoever wrote the Voyager examples can be accused of that and it could stand to be rewritten to reduce that effect and get rid of its examples that don't fit the trope, but I don't think it's accurate for the page in general.
The Bad Wolf: in theory there is a distinction but in practice all the examples seem to be a really bad hand wave, I really don't think we would loose much putting these examples into Hand Wave or It Just Bugs Me!.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Now that this has entered the Cut List, we had better make sure that, in theory, this trope has a meaning. This happens when someone tries to Hand Wave or Scotch Tape or otherwise explain a Plot Hole or Wall Banger, and the Handwave itself is also a Plot Hole or Wall Banger. Hand Waves aren't inherently bad, so this is a valid trope. (For the record, good handwaves tend to be called Lampshade Hanging or Justified Tropes around here.
The Bad Wolf: but with out a major edit it just comes off as Hand Wave and Wall Banger The Same But More with a healthy dose of Complaining About Shows You Don't Like. As it is it definitely needs to be labeled as a Subjective Trope and I'm still not convinced as to why it shouldn't be just combined with Wall Banger or Hand Wave.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Voodoo Shark is when the Handwave to "explain" a Wall Banger is, in itself, a Wall Banger. This isn't just The Same But More - you can have Hand Waves that aren't outright Wall Bangers. Make it a Subjective Trope if you like, but don't kill it.
The Bad Wolf: your missing the point, it's not that this trope isn't in theory a distinct idea, but that this page, here on the wiki it is just people bitching about particularly bad Wall Bangers and it either needs to be extensively rewritten or it should go.
(discussion goes at the bottom)
Iluvtvtropes (trope creator): The Bad Wolf, you obviously don't really get the meaning of this trope. It refers to a specific Hand Wave or Author's Saving Throw but only makes the situation worse. Also, it's just bad to put everything into Just Bugs Me because then we would have to go into each show to see examples, plus not every Just Bugs Me moment is a Voodoo Shark.
The Bad Wolf: see my previous comment as you obviously didn't bother to read the discussion. Yes I get what this page is supposed to be, yes I still think it should be cut it's just bitching about shows you don't like.
The Bad Wolf: here's a compromise what if we keep it as it is, but move it here.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: I've edited the examples. Can we keep the trope here now? You yourself said the trope was good in theory; surely we should correct the examples to match the theory, before asking to cut the trope?
Lord TNK: Let's imagine you pull a gun out of your ass at the end of a play. That would be an Ass Pull. Let's say you have the gun on the mantelpiece from the beginning. That would be Chekhov's Gun. Let's say you pull a gun out of your ass, put it on the mantelpiece, and then it's used at the end of a play. That would be this trope. The detail is still introduced, but it's still out of nowhere.
If I can fit that in the description, I will.
Drow Lord: Removed
- Baten Kaitos: Origins: Verus, who told the heroes exactly how to defeat the evil conspiracy and assisted them throughout the game turns out to be complicit. It is an abrupt and completely absurd revelation.
He wasn't complicit with the other conspiracy. Verus (or, should I say, Wiseman) had his own, and tricked Sagi into complying with him.
Rebochan: Pulled this one:
- Final Fantasy Tactics Advance states that the world Marche and his friends have gotten trapped in is simultaneously a transformed version of their own town from Earth, a cowardly psychic "escape" for Marche's friends, and it's own legitimate world in regards to unique inhabitants not originally in Marche's original town. The plot refuses to see any contradiction in this.
Because this is only contradictory when you're in the "Marche Radjuu: Genocidal Murderer" camp.
Ununnilium:
- In Quantum Leap, Sam doesn't suffer from any physical disabilities of his leap-ee. This is explained by saying that what looks like Mental Time Travel isn't - his body is actually moved, and every person has a "physical aura" over him- or herself that looks like him/her, an illusion of you over you that happens to look just like you. The "aura" of the leap-ee remains, so it still looks like the person... except to children, the mentally-retarded, and a few people whose brain wiring is just so (in other words, any non-Sam person who can see Al will, for the same reason, not see the "aura," even though the way Al works and the way physical auras work is completely different.) Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Bellisario, stick to your Maxim next time.
I honestly don't see how that counts as this. It allows a cute thing where kids and dogs can see him, and that was the intent.
Korval: The reason it counts is because the mechanism of leaping (going from body to body, while looking like the other people) makes no sense. So they try to explain it (with "auras" and whatnot), which makes even less sense. That is, the explaination fails to explain things, or does so in a particularly stupid manor. The attempt to preserve the Willing Supsension Of Disbelief failed on this point. It's actually a textbook example of a Voodoo Shark.
Remember: Tropes Arent Bad, even Voodoo Shark. They may have used it and gotten away with it, and it may have netted them some cool things like dogs being able to see him and such, but that doesn't stop it from being a clear Voodoo Shark.
- In Ben 10 Alien Force, magic is dismissed as alien powers. This is said despite these 'alien powers' requiring incantations learned from spell books. In one episode, Gwen uses Divination to locate an enemy base. Also in the series before it Ben 10, there was soul-swapping, a fountain of youth, and mystic artifacts. Alien powers? Ya right.
- In mild defense of a plot development This Troper otherwise hates, Gwen's new "Pink Lantern" shtick seems to work on thought alone.
- There's the possible solution that it's alien powers that work in the exact same way as magic, but that begs the question of "If it works the exact same way, just with a different source, how the hell is that not magic?"
- Since when is "mana" in general not magic to begin with?
- There's a very reasonable explanation for this; it's basically the Fullmetal Alchemist effect - that is, to those who understand it, magic isn't MAGIC, it's science. Because even magic has very specific rules it has to follow, it can be theorized that, what one group considers mystical because they don't understand it, another who has a very intimate understanding of the same thing will see it as a science. It's never been said, either, that the Energy Beings in Ben 10 are the only creatures in the universe that can manipulate Mana; it may be that even humans can, but require "focuses" or "spells," similar to how, traditionally, humans aren't magical, but can manipulate magic via artifacts and a knowledge of how magical energies work. At best, maybe this will be a plot point that the writers either retcon or never speak of again.
Yeah, so this doesn't seem to count. >>
- It does, and not only did I add the example back but I also made it very clear why.
- The Season 3 finale of the revived Doctor Who series qualifies. First, The Master turned The Doctor into Dobby the House Elf using Applied Phlebotinum, which was silly enough. But then The Doctor is restored to his normal self by everyone on Earth wishing him back via the Masters own mind-control sattelites. Which also gave The Doctor Jedi powers temporarily. No, seriously. A Voodoo Shark would have made more sense.
Complaining About Shows You Dont Like. It makes perfect sense to me; the minds of everyone on Earth were linked, so the slight psychic potential that everyone has was combined and focused on a single result.
- This troper recently ran into this problem when designing a campaign setting for a D&D game. It's a world covered in sand, but the sand flows like an ocean, is traversed in ships, et cetera. Then I tried figuring out how it worked. So far, it's still getting dumber and dumber.
Needs more detail and less contributor-page pothole.
Cassius335: I think the AF example may still count, but it got swallowed by Conversation In The Main Page. The whole idea of that one is "The show tried to classify magic as "alien powers", but that doesn't fit with what was previously demonstrated". The reference to the FMA Effect is interesting, possibly even a trope by itself (and a certain "Geoff T" was very in favour of that viewpoint on a forum), but rather beside the point, as the episodes haven't said anything of the sort, just "Oh, it's not magic."
Ununnilium: Hmmmm, seems more like Doing In the Wizard, then.
Cassius335: The show page has it listed as both, actually.
Oots Fan: Added the Ben 10: Alien Force entry back in. It fits despite earlier claims that it does not. Why? Because incantations, mystic artifacts, soul swapping, cannot be explained away simply as 'Alien Powers' or 'science'. It only makes sense as magic.
Cassius335: Oots Fan, please put your name on your posts so we know it was you speaking.
The Bad Wolf: I'm getting rid of that Doctor Who season 4 thing about Dalek Caan, he's so bad shit crazy ascribing a motivation to anything he does, let alone such a complex Thirty Xanatos Pileup played against himself/The Doctor/the laws of reality/logic, is an exercise in futility. As for how he is able to manipulate the time line that would not be a Voodoo Shark either as they don't bother to explain it beyond: I'm as surprised as you.
Meta Four: This Star Wars example seems more like straight Fridge Logic. I don't recall the source of the Clone Army ever being used to explain or justify any plot points.
- Star Wars has a Voodoo Shark moment in Episode II: the ships, weapons and gear of the clone army was built by some of the largest megacorporations in the galaxy without anyone knowing. So no one ever wondered where Rothana Heavy Engineering's most lucrative contract came from? None of the employees of said corporations ever noticed they were painting republic logos on military equipment for an organizations that officially did not have an army?
UK: It's definitely a case of Fridge Logic as (even mentioned in the example itself) there is no attempt made to justify how no one noticed the creation of the Clone Army. Pulled.
Blork: The Jet Jaguar example at the end seems to be Fridge Logic or a Wall Banger rather than this trope. Can someone who knows the show confirm if growing huge was ever used to explain anything.
Trouser Wearing Barbarian: Growing huge isn't used to explain anything, the explanation for the growth is the Voodoo Shark.
Peteman: Pulled some Natter.
- Count it as Dis Continuity and make the Hand Wave that Han didn't know what the hell he was talking about.
- It was to show off the hyperspace navigation, as it proved the ship could maneuver through complex areas with minimum zigging and zagging. It was just poorly stated in the film itself.
- Alternatively, Han was just bullshitting the farmboy and the old man.
- The Kessel Run passes a black hole cluster known as the Maw, and the distance is a reference to how close he could skirt the black hole and still have the engines able to pull him out.
- of course....
- Expanded universe uses the black hole thing, but word of God is that it was an intentional mistake to show Han was full of shit. Note that Obi-Wan looks a little pained and raises an eyebrow at this statement.
The Angel Hedgie: Pulled this entry:
- Naruto features a villain named Sasori, who turns dead people into puppets. This allows him to use the puppet to use the jutsu that they knew in life. This makes no sense, as the person is dead, and jutsu are just a knowledge of techniques. So how do they explain this? By saying that the way this works is that the human puppet generates the unique kinds of chakra needed for the jutsu, and that's why they allow him to use it. Except that chakra is generated from living cells! A dead body shouldn't have any chakra to begin with!
While I'll admit the scene in the manga is pretty muddy about it, the concept of "genetic jutsus" (kekkei genkai) is pretty well established in the series. As such, I would say this definitely doesn't qualify, as the concept fits logically in the rules of the series world, even if it's spelled out muddily.
Bring The Noise: Cut - "* Star Trek: Voyager. The Season 5 premiere "Night," where the holodeck is still functioning (albeit at a reduced capacity) despite the rest of the ship being completely knocked out - presumably for the reason cited in "The Cloud." Yes, history repeated itself.
- History repeating itself in a form we fondly call "continuity". Gods know it was rare enough on voyager, let's just savor it."
The second point is valid, but it's still Conversation On The Main Page, so I took it all out.
Haven: Took out this bit because Voodoo Sharks aren't just "explanations one finds unpalatable," but "retcons of plot holes after the fact which make the plot even more hole-y", and that doesn't apply to any of these incidents. If someone said in season 2 that Rose becoming the Bad Wolf had nothing to do with the Time Vortex and was really because she was an angel, THAT would be this trope.
- You'll be lucky if Doctor Who's season finales provide anything half as credible as a Voodoo Shark to handwave their dii ex machina.
Also, I'm just going to put this here until I have access to a copy of Snow Crash.
- Snow Crash. There's a virus that destroys hackers' brains. You really want to know why? Hackers are so awesome at binary that it's encoded into the deep structures of their brains. In the past, Sumerian priests programmed their subjects with the law, which reached those deep structures in a similar way. The Big Bad funded SETI because he wanted to find a translation of Sumerian tablets into binary, which aliens are totally spamming. Even if you take as given that any of this is true (the bit about aliens in particular is kind of a Big-Lipped Alligator Moment, and deep structures do not work that way), it still doesn't make sense, because why would Sumerian translated into binary break your brain if you? Why would aliens be doing that? Why would an alien binary code work on a human?
