Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Seven Seals: Pre-emptive Trope Overdosed discourager: the Fire Nation from Avatar: The Last Airbender does not belong here. Yes, they are big and powerful and led by a despot, but they are not The Empire. They lack both the rebel force and the small autonomous nations; they're simply the dominant military force currently for lack of an Avatar to keep things in balance. It's not too far-fetched to assume they can be defeated militarily if the remaining nations band together under the Avatar (although there's obviously going to be some confrontation with Fire Lord Ozai as well). The world of Avatar is just not black and white enough to make this sort of distinction.

Andyzero: I agree, to be an empire, you have to have conquered numerous nations. While the Fire Nation has engaged in genocide, and conquered some cities; it's not enough really to be an "Empire." There just aren't enough countries in Avatar: The Last Airbender .

Tanto: Yet.

Ununnilium: This is weird. I could've sworn we already had a "The Evil Empire" trope, but no. Huh.

Citizen: I'd rather just call this Evil Empire, but whatever.

Seth: i won't put it in the main entry, but Star Fleet have a lot of these features

Jordan: Not to beat a dead horse, but I thought I'd bring up a question I voiced in "You Know That Thing Where"- if the Fire Kingdom isn't the Evil Empire, than what is it? I lean towards thinking that it is just a more realistic version (in the sense that it is more like actual countires on earth which established empires) and that the role of rebels is filled by Aang and his friends.

Seth: Read the first entry in this page. One they dont call themselves an empire, 2 they are yet to take over the world. There are not fighting against plucky rebels but other nations. Making them just a militaristic nation.

Seven Seals: The most salient feature of the Evil Empire is its omnipresence. You've got the Evil Army, the hapless repressed citizens and the small force of brave rebels standing alone against the ridiculously powerful oppressor. It may be matter of degree, but the Fire Nation just doesn't feel like an Evil Empire, just like the dominant military force in the Avatar world. With the Empire in Star Wars, you never for a moment doubt that the universe would be lost were it not for the handful of heroes fighting against it (and inexplicably winning). While the world of Avatar is certainly in a dire state and Aang is necessary to make a difference, things just don't look as black and white for the Fire Nation to be the omnipresent Evil Empire. Kick Azula out of the Earth Nation and a full-scale war between nations is back on.

Charred Knight: Considering that the Fire Nation, currently controls the Earth Nation that's much harder than it sounds. Also Plucky Rebels? Check. Large control of the world? Fire Nation controls both the Earth Kingdom, and annihalated the Air Nomads leaving only the Water Tribe? Which has a weak military.

Charred Knight: Green Herring, the British Empire, was led by a king. Do some research, hell I bet most of the people here are part of a country that was part of the British Empire. America, Canada, Australia, India, several countries in Africa.

Arakhor: Let's not forget Pakistan, Bangladesh, Ireland and of course the United Kingdom.

Lord Carnifex: As used in the study of history, an empire is defined as a state that controls the internal and external affairs of one or more smaller states. The Athenian Empire (calling itself the Delian Leauge) was lead by a democracy, the Roman Imperium transitioned from a republic to an autocracy, the Soviet Union was a single-party republic. Not every Empire requires an Emperor.
Anowack: Removed a couple of entries for not being examples of this trope: * Avoided in Starcraft - although no faction is given as explicitly good, the least-evil is the Empire formed by humans rebelling against the authoritarian "United Earth Directorate". ** This troper would argue that as a whole, the united Protoss were better.

* Tamriel in The Elder Scrolls universe is a rare example of a benevolent empire, more akin to The Kingdom but spanning an entire continent. Although Cyrodiilic government has little reservations about using dirty power plays, it is also notoriously tolerant towards its provinces' specifics and internal politics. This troper cannot recall any records of massive uprisings among the Tamrielic citizens against the Septim dynasty that were not inspired or led by something else that someone's lust for power.
Charred Knight: deleted because the first part was wrong as discussed above giving several real life Empires not ruled by an Emperor or Emperess. The second part just seems to be some douchebag mocking Pailoini because his using Empire to denote evil. WHICH SEVERAL AUTHORS DO! Its why this trope is called the Empire!

  • Which is hilarious because: A) It's led by a King. and B) an Empire is this: a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor or empress, usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom. There are no extra nations, just the breakaway and the "Empire". Clearly Paolini was going for the "Empires are Eviiiil! thing here.
    • And fails at it. The Empire hasn't done anything really bad, look at what Paolini gives as justification for the rebellion: collecting taxes (something every government does to maintain its country and the Dragon Riders should have done the same thing), crushed any sign of rebellion (Gee, Galbatorix crushing organized movements trying to dethrone and kill him is evil instead of him simply wanting to survive and for some reason I doubt the Dragon Riders booked much resistance from the peasantry either) and enforcing conscription (if it wasn't for Eragon and the Varden he wouldn't need all those damn soldiers in the first place!). Hardly an Evil Empire, Galbatorix is at best somewhat competent and just has a bunch of spoiled, ungrateful bastards as subjects and at worst incompetent with the same type of subjects.

Nornagest: Pulled

** Although the Tau Empire is arguably The Federation. They've had their Kick the Dog moments, but still are most clear-cut and idealistic in that universe.
*** I would have to argue that. The Tau tend to use copious amounts of mind control in order to keep their worlds under control, as well as mercenaries and colonial auxilleries in order to preserve Tau lives. It's only The Federation for the Tau themselves, and exists for the sole reason of not being destroyed by the Imperium.

I don't particularly care what you file it under, but this "yes it is!" "no it ain't" business is worse than any conceivable resolution.

Kingogtheingdaw: I removed: Or the British Empire. If you were Indian, it was The Empire, but if you were Canadian, it was The Federation, both at the same time.

The British Empire wouldn't be considered The Empire from an Indians perspective because that would mean it was an evil regime, which it wasn't.

Xi Whoeverski: It wasn't? What, you think the Indians thought the Brits were nice chaps who just happened to have taken over their country and subjugated the Indian people so they could take advantage of its resources? And have more ready access to tea. It's not like the little massacres that took place could have upset anyone. I suppose Gandhi was just a silly trouble-maker.

Kingogtheingdaw: I never said it was perfect, hell even Gandhi himself supported the British Raj at one point.

Don Quigleone: In Ireland it's consider The Empire, noone heard of the Famine? Or the Black and Tans? We also had La Résistance.

The USA itself, especially when republicans are in charge.

Hello? FlameBait?

Ramidel: Deleted that. Whether or not I agree, the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement applies here.