This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Deus Ex Biotica: Is even of those urban legends an example of the trope? Final test stories are all well and good, but those all deal with not-even-remotely-secret tests of character, where the thing tested is exactly what they say.
A story I heard growing up revolved around an heirless king/emperor/'tever handing out seeds to all of the children, saying the one who grew the most beautiful flower would be his successor ... then revealed that he'd cooked the seeds when all the kids but one showed up with ill-gotten flowers. I was going to add this as an example (this is probably one of The Oldest Ones in the Book), but .. naturally I don't remember the title. Any bells rung?
:It was as a plot for a Usagi Yojimbo story, set during his childhood days under his sensei's training. Usagi passes the test/
A K47x 2: Kudos to whoever put the Milgram experiment on there.
Zeke: It was me! I'm the hero!
Fast Eddie: For the Unknown Troper above. See this book
.
- I call shenanigans. That is clearly not courage, it's chutzpah!
Feh, I say!
Later:
- Similarly, on an exam in a philosophy course on existentialism; "What is reality. Give two examples."
I don't see how this example fits the trope. `.`
- Fire Walk: Right, just organised these into media, if I put something wrong somewhere, well, sort it yourself.
Also there are a few where someone gets emotionally attached to a dog, then forced to kill them (dog, wife, inanimate cube, whatever). That seems like something different, as a secret test would be where not shooting the dog would win you the position.
Ununnilium: De-Thread Mode-ing this:
One would have assumed that the whole "Thou Shalt Not Kill" would have been the secret test, but no...
- Well, that may be because the story of Abraham predates the Ten Commandments. I suppose you could claim that it's part of the Noahide rules but then again, we'd already established that "Do What Yahweh Tells You" is the meta-law that overrides all others, as violating it caused the Fall.
- And besides, the rule is more literally translated as "Thou Shalt Not Murder/Slaughter".
- Actually, since God already promised Abraham that he would have many descendants through Isaac, it's easy to infer that Abraham figured God would just raise him from the dead after the sacrifice.
- Well, that may be because the story of Abraham predates the Ten Commandments. I suppose you could claim that it's part of the Noahide rules
Danel: I disagree that it's a Secret Test of Character, however - Abraham does exactly what God told him to. In a secret test of character he'd refuse to do so, and God would reveal that he'd passed the real test. I just can't see in any way in which it fits this trope.
Ununnilium: This is... a good point. Anybody disagree?
Later: Okay, pulling it out:
- In another Biblical example, attempting to kill his son is the Secret Test of Character for Abraham. In this case, the moral seems to be that subjugation to God comes before all things. (And yes, we know you disagree/agree; take it to the discussion page.)
Ununnilium:
This editor wonders what Wonka would have done if he got two well-behaved children out of the tests. Have them fight to the death?
- Actually, he said in the book that he was going to see which ones survived and then pick his favorite.
Conversation In The Main Page.
Master Hand:
What was that "Don't do any of the previous instructions" test called anyway?
Mr Death: Took this bit out of the Men In Black entry: "Another test involves a simulated fight with aliens. Jay shot the little girl, which turned out to be an evil alien in disguise; the obvious alien monsters were the actual innocent bystanders in the test."
This wasn't a secret test. J failed it. Afterward, Zed is very clearly disappointed and annoyed with J's BS answer, and K has to argue on his behalf despite his performance on that test.
Caswin: Very clearly? I've seen the movie half a dozen times and never noticed any very-clear disappointment on Zed's part. Neither has anyone else I've ever watched it with. Besides which, that doesn't account for the fact that everyone else very clearly failed.
Mr Death: Then answer me this: If J was the only one to pass the tests, and everyone else "clearly" failed, then why does K have to argue to Zed on his behalf? At that point, if one person had passed all the tests while the rest failed them all, it should have been a foregone conclusion, and Zed wouldn't have given K the "If you say so," he did in the movie. Listen to K: "He ran down [that alien] on foot! That's got to count for something." That's an argument that's made despite a failure.
Edit: Look at Zed's face at 1:17. I dunno about you, but that's definitely a "You expect me to buy that crap?" look to me. Zed shakes his head as he walks away.
Caswin: Huh. I'm not sure I caught that before. That said, I think that I've always read that as him flat-out not liking J's attitude, a heavenward "This is our new agent?" look. Zed's next scene has him criticizing not J's lack of competence in the field, but his problem with authority - at which point K argues for him, netting a grudging acceptance. If J had really out-and-out failed, I doubt that being unusually fast and personally liked by K would have been enough to push him through.
Caswin: About the third Naruto example (mine): Sorry to get defensive, but that response doesn't sound right to me. I didn't mean they should sacrifice the team - instead of "team," try "one member," and where it says "sacrifice," something more like "doesn't get to eat lunch because he knowingly broke the rules." I'd edit it, but that takes away the point, I don't want to leave it as it is, and I don't think I can delete it on these grounds. Any thoughts?
Danel: I can't help but feel that the shoot the dog test deserves to be higher up... as it is, we've several coy mentions of it all the way down the page. That is, if it evens counts as an example of this - I'm not sure it is, since you have to do exactly what they say. Maybe it could do with a page of its own?
This page is about when these things happen because somebody set them up, but when nature/fate creates situations like this that have similar results, what trope would that be?
Devil's Advocate: Removed these examples, as the "correct answer" of a Secret Test of Character is to not do (or at least give something else higher priority over) what the subejct is told to do. These are aversions: the correct answer is exactly what they are told to do. Also removing mention of the parable of the goats and the sheep, for the same reason, plus the fact that you're telling everyone about it means it's not a secret test.
- Moorpark College, America's Teaching Zoo has several of these.
- During the students' first week they are required to kill a pigeon by hand. This has two practical goals, 1) many of the animals there require whole small animals in order to have a balanced diet, and it's more practical to raise and kill them yourself. But the main test is whether or not the student can put aside their love for animals and view them in a practical manner.
- Related to that, during the first year of the two year program students are not allowed to talk to, look at, or interact with with the zoo animals in any way, excluding the rats they were assigned to train. Doing so results in points lost, which reduces the likelihood of them being assigned the animal they want to train in the second year as well as lowering their grades. Again, the lesson here is whether they can learn to handle the animals in a practical manner and not treat them like pets.
- The students would also take turns staying up all night supervising the animals, and then do their normal classes and animal care the next day. This was supposedly to teach them discipline, never mind that real life zoo keepers and animal trainers hardly ever pull these kinds of shifts. This practice has been discontinued due to legal implications.
The Guy With Cloud Envy: Since there is an example of Gawain, two actually, shouldn't Parcival also be included? With the holy Grail and king Amfortas and stuff?
