This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Useful Notes About Tier Lists launched as Character Tiers Discussion: From YKTTW
Blitz Blast: Edited the Pokemon section to explain in greater detail how it actually works.
Known Unknown: Changed up that last paragraph of the description so that it isn't so critical of tiers. After all, they do exist, they just don't matter nearly as much as people think they do.
i8246i: They only exist if you choose to let them exist. Its like saying a game is cheap because it lets you do cheap tricks (camping, spamming a move, etc)...there IS a way to get around people playing cheap tricks, and even playing "tiers", and you don't have to cheat to do it.
You just have to learn the skills to get around them...or just be more cheap than they are.
I also like how people don't have Pikachu in their "high tiers"....even though he's the cheapest little fluffball of evil I've ever seen. AND I PLAY AS HIM. I've seriously banned myself from playing the character so I can have fun during Brawl sessions. You know, fun, the reason why video games exist?
....I think this page needs to be a subtrope of "Stop Having Fun" Guys.
Known Unknown: As the creator of "Stop Having Fun" Guys, I'm going to have to disagree with this being a subtrope of that. Believing in character tiers doesn't instantly make you a STFG (remember the point of STFG is to criticize that judgmental attitude in the first place, and get rid of the idea that all people who don't play that way are Scrubs), and they don't equate to "cheap gaming." As a long time player of fighting games, I know that character balance is rarely perfect; some characters will have strengths that make them easier to win with, while other characters have weaknesses. The a big part of whether or not you're a SHFG, or a Scrub (god, I hate that word), or anything, is how you react to those, and what you do with them (A SHFG will only use high-tier characters and unfairly chastise those who don't, while a Scrub will use all characters and unfairly chastise those who choose to use high tier characters. You see the irony, of course...)
Like I said, tiers exist, but, for the most part don't really matter when faced with a good player. A low tier character can be the deadliest character in the game if the person behind the controller is good enough. There is usually no such thing as a useless character when faced with the adaptability of the human mind.
All in all, I'm trying to be objective here. Seeing both sides and all that.
- Casual players (i.e., ones who actually play the game) tend to ignore the tier lists entirely, as any character can feasibly trump any other character if used properly.
Tanto: Flame Bait; removing based on the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment. There's really no need to get into a big thing about which Player Archetype plays the game the "right" way. If you don't care about Character Tiers, you don't care about Character Tiers; it doesn't make you morally superior.
- Known Unknown: Aye, that kind of thinking is what got "Stop Having Fun" Guys Flanderization shot to hell. Which is ironic, since the entire point of that trope is a criticism of that attitude...
- Super Smash Bros is often classified with a tier system, although there doesn't seem to be much debate on it — other than if Sheik is so good that she should have her own tier.
- Actually, Sheik hasn't been ranked on top for a while. Sheik is more characterized by ease of learning, since the moveset itself is very strong. Fox, Falco, and Marth are all very strong characters with high-level, extremely technical maneuvers making them, these days, generally ranked at or above Sheik's level. Sheik is still arguably God Tier in living room, "What's a wavedash?" play, though. The point still stands that SSBM tiers to do not generally spark flamewars and are generally pretty agreed-upon.
- "Serious Business" Indeed.
- "Generally agreed upon" my ass. This troper has been in no less than three arguements in the last month over whether they even exist.
- Every time I hear someone in a Smash discussion argue about "tiers" I laugh and think of Shin Bison. And then I think of Shin Akuma and cringe.
- Actually, Sheik hasn't been ranked on top for a while. Sheik is more characterized by ease of learning, since the moveset itself is very strong. Fox, Falco, and Marth are all very strong characters with high-level, extremely technical maneuvers making them, these days, generally ranked at or above Sheik's level. Sheik is still arguably God Tier in living room, "What's a wavedash?" play, though. The point still stands that SSBM tiers to do not generally spark flamewars and are generally pretty agreed-upon.
Tanto: Ugh, we've got major Conversation In The Main Page going on here. Moving it here until someone hashes it out into something readable.
- Eternal Sonata tries to have a balanced set of characters. However Claves, due to storyline reasons, Claves is significantly weaker than other characters while both Viola and, at later levels, Polka become extremely useful for their ability to heal every friendly character on the screen. Repeatedly. Every turn. Polka can also damage every hostile character to that same effect.
Pulled this out, Eternal Sonata's characters aren't really tiered, they just have different roles, like any other RPG's. You expect the healer characters to heal people, and they can all heal everyone every turn.
Tanto:
- Of course, the very nature of that game means that the character tiers are based on a very restrictive gameplay that brings it more in line with a normal Fightning Game, including the removal of every item and most stages. One wonders why they picked that game for tournaments only to make every effort possible to turn it into a Street Fighter with Nintendo characters is anyones guess.
Stop that. We don't need another fucking Smash Brothers flame war. You've got Scrubs to bitch about this; bring it there or Take It To The Forums.
- Goddess. Random Number Goddess. All Fire Emblem games have a Goddess, only the Evil Gods are male. Well.... usually, anyway.
Irrelevant.
Duckluck: Cut:
- Though, to be fair, the fighter class is closer to a Disc-One Nuke than an underpowered character, making mincemeat out of anything they lay their eyes on. Up until level 5, when wizards become an unstoppable torrent of arcane wrath.
- Druids, on the other hand, pretty much outclass everything at all levels.
- To be fair, it depends somewhat on the optimization of the players. Wizards who think Fireball is the best spell ever generally don't run away with the game very far.
Arglegargle! Yes, wizards, clerics, and druids have more potential power than fighters at all levels. Yes, potential power is different from actual power. Yes, you can still play a respectable fighter. No, you may not argue about it on the main page. There are a dozen D&D forums where you can have this discussion, if you really want.
Regardless of their tier, any character can be used to beat any other character if played well, so it's kind of a moot point to begin with...
Tanto: Thank you for that bit of Smash Bros. bias. Please come back when you have something that isn't blatantly false.
Rogue 7: Not that it belongs on the main page, but it's true simply by the statement that all characters can do damage, and thus knock out the opponent. So while they're certainly unbalanced (and I think Brawl has a much more level playing field), it's not blatantly false.
Kingogtheingdaw: Brawl is less balanced then Melee and 64. the above quote is wrong because tiers assume players are at their highest metagame and therefore the same skill. I agree with Tanto, this page is for tiers in general, not smash tiers.
"The Super Robot Wars games, in which both mecha and individual pilots are ranked." Does it refers to their military rank(characters), terrain rank(both) or being called Real or Super(mecha)? time=1228846991
Kingogtheingdaw: I have created a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sREVZqH3y0&fmt=18
to help educate people in what tiers (in brawl anyways) are all about.
Kingogtheingdaw: I cut this natter:
- This troper's house banned Yoshi, for being too powerful. His neighbour banned Kirby for being too powerful. His other neighbour banned Pikachu, his school friend banned Ness, his other school friend banned Link, and his other school friend banned Captain Falcon. Bans of Mario, Luigi, Samus, and Donkey Kong were also witnessed. After asking around, it's clear that everyone knows one character is way too powerful... But no one can agree which it is.
- To be clear, they weren't all banned, leaving just Fox, though that character has also been excluded by house rules at varying points. It's just a matter of whoever owns the N64 choose that one technique is "cheap", so that character isn't allowed anymore. Your Mileage May Vary when it comes to what is and isn't cheap, hence the many different house rules.
These should be in some sort of troper tales section, preferably Scrub considering they're about banning "cheap" characters.
Kingogtheingdaw: Cut this due to the SSB bias it has, try saying this to a Pokemon player.
Note: Tiers are not as pivotal as they seem or are portrayed to be; rather, they exist, but are less important than than the skill/advantages of the player and the character; a well built game will have most characters be viable choices to those suited to them even if some have natural advantages. Of course, that doesn't stop people from becoming fixated on following the tiers, sometimes obsessively so. See also Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny for an even more ridiculous variant. See Random Power Ranking for the canon equivalent.
Chad M - Removed for being blatantly false:
To see why character tier happens, see Fake Balance
Blitz Blast: Someone should probably clean up the Pokemon section. It repeats itself occasionally, the definitions for Underused and Neverused aren't the best, and there's been a recent change in tiers, dropping Pikachu down to NU.
