This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
new stuff goes at the bottom
Removed the Portgas D. Ace example. Firstly, it was placed in Comics for some reason, even though it was clearly Anime and Manga, and secondly it was hinted that Luffy and Ace were not directly related by their last names, he eluded to his father being Roger while in Impel Down and given that his mother was a D. carrier, it is (slighty) more plausible in the series that she could do something as outrageous as hold her child for 20 months, linking the nature of the people carrying the D. middle name to have ridiculous willpower. It was more of The Reveal mixed with Red Herring and Shocking Swerve. Uglyguy2009
Charred Knight: The asspull would be the twenty month thing, basically it screams Oda just decided to make Ace Roger's kid and to explain the time discrepency, it had the ridiculous twenty month. I said it in another forum, Oda usually has things that are obviously planned ahead, well thought out, and in hindsight makes perfect sense, much like the work of Hiromu Arakawa. The Ace being Rodger's kid basically looked like Tite Kubo wrote the chapter.
Deleted the Itachi one. For starters, Itachi was never sadistic, and actually avoided any serious confrontation throughout the series until the end. During flashbacks, he had been shown to be a caring brother. The twist ties in with the main storyline which was being built-up long before the twist. The story Itachi told Sasuke was also a blatant red herring, and any genre-savy reader should have been waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Charred Knight: Well except for the time he tortured both Sasuke, and Kakashi with the whole sharingan. Look, the Itachi plot twist was without a doubt the worst plot twist I have ever seen outside of Pro Wrestling
I'm removing the first Code Geass example from the article
- unlike the scene in Gundam SEED, the Code Geass mecha is never shown to explode or even be completely consumed by the Sphere of Destruction, as the scene instead cuts to another character suddenly losing communication with the 'dying' one the second before the blast is about to touch the cockpit of the 'dying' character's robot. Moments later a throwaway shot is inserted that implies that the bomb disrupted all communication. The Law of Conservation of Detail and whatnot. So hardly an Asspull
Sunder The Gold: Any reason this was deleted?
- In the third season of Avatar The Last Airbender, the entire plot for "The Firebending Masters" is basically a filler episode where the problem is an Asspull to justify the plot in the first place, and the solution is an Asspull to return to the status quo, with some hokey-pokey Lets Contemplate Our Navels added in that only makes it worse, seeing as it appears to ignore and contradict both Jeong Jeong and the firebending performer in the season 1 episode, "The Desserter". The only good parts of the filler episode were the character interactions and some new background information on the characters and setting (Toph's childhood and the fate of the dragons) — but all of which could have been used in a much better episode, in this troper's opinion. It also Asspulls an ancient, forgotten civilization of firebenders which seems to fit rather inelegantly with the whole established setting and story.
Charred Knight: It doesn't explain why it's an asspull, it just says it's an asspull. From what I heard apparently it contradicts where Firebending was learned which would be a retcon, not an asspull.
That Other 1 Dude: I don't think that was a retcon as it said the sun was the source of firebending (power), they hadn't said who they learned it from.
Just caught (by chance) one of the eps from around that arc (I think... is Glory attempting to conduct a ceremony involved in this one?), and Buffy said (and I paraphrase) "Dawn's more than my sister, she's a part of me"... might explain things. — Ungvichian
I'm pretty sure that line actually *is* the asspull in question. Originally, it was Dawn that was the key with no hint that Buffy could somehow fill in for her. I'm pretty sure that's why this is considered an asspull. — Polynices
Yes, the line *is* the asspull. Glory needs the Key. The Key has been mixed with elements of Buffy to form Dawn. Now Buffy says that because Dawn was made from her, her own blood is as good as Dawn's to use as the Key. This is logically equivalent to fixing a cheese sandwich and then expecting that you can put another slice of cheese in the toaster and get toast. — Kalimac
//So that's what the cheese guy from "Restless" is talking about!
Gus:Funny stuff, Kalimac! By the way, I do not recall that anything from Buffy went into Dawn's making. Maybe I need to go back and spin those series 5 DV Ds.
Red Shoe: There's also a bit when Dawn pulls her whole self-mutilation bit upon finding out what she is. Buffy compares her own bleeding hand to Dawn's and says, as if it is Very Meaningful, that they have the same blood.
Didn't they touch hands in that? Maybe that could've led to some mixing of the blood or something. I'm not really in favor of the idea, I didn't like Buffy's jump, because it seemed more like suicide than heroic sacrifice, but it could be why it happened.
Discuss... this is an excerpt from a summary
of a Winx Club ep.
Back with Stella, Layla, and the pixies, a bunch of colored cards appear before them. Stella asks what it is. (Pixie) Concorda says it seems to be some sort of ancient puzzle. (Another pixie) Athena guesses that the portal won't open unless they solve it. Layla sees the puzzle as ridiculously impossible. Layla is so thinking "we're screwed" at this point! Stella thinks back to a field trip they took for magical history class. Layla remembers, but isn't sure what the museum of ancient realms has to do with the puzzle, but Stella tells her about the civilization that communicated with hue and pattern, and easily solves the puzzle, opening the portal to Realix. Athena is impressed with how knowledgeable Stella is with magical history. Stella wonders if she could ask to have her grade improved in that class.
Since we never saw them take a field trip, would this count as an asspull?
And on a related note, the original version has Stella having no idea about anything except that the colors on the cards clash a lot, and she just rearranges them around randomly, tackling the puzzle blindly, and just happening on the solution. Would that count too?
Can this entry be complete without describing the Doctor Who episode Bad Wolf, where a (naked) Captain Jack gets a gun (a Compact Laser Deluxe) from 'You don't want to know'...? xwingace
Seth: It does seem like a quite literal Ass Pull doesn't it :D
Red Shoe: Incidentally, today on rec.arts.drwho, someone used the phrase "Acquires it the way Captain Jack acquires laser guns" to describe a sort of Deus ex Machina. I will now adopt it as my personal favorite euphemism.
Thatother1dude: Can I add the whole thing in The Terminator 3 about the message changing from Screw Destiny to You Can't Fight Fate as a way to get away with another movie or two? (this is why I really didn't like T3)
Scientivore: I cleaned up the new second entry on Buffy a little, mostly using Wikipedia episode descriptions to jog my memory.
http://news.ansible.co.uk/plotdev.html
<- The Flaz Gaz Heat Ray was the first thing I thought of when I read this. I'm not sure the actual book is an interesting enough example to add to the page, though.
Checking the airdates on Wikipedia, Roddenbery died a month before Crosby's first "Sela" episode (Redemption 1 & 2, 4th/5th season crossover) aired. Furthermore, he didn't actually produce the fourth or fifth season - his last direct work in the series was producing sections of the third. Therefore Sela is highly unlikely to have been his biggest mistake, or even his. He may not have been aware of her at all.
That Other 1 Dude: I think that first Naruto one is just Hollywood Science. The second one sounds more like a Plot Hole (or it might also be a Plot Hole). EDIT: And the third one is about Just in Time, and should be in Just in Time.
Pro-Mole: Okay, really, what's with the "Baby Daisy" example? C'mon, she did have to come from somewhere didn't she? Or are we starting to complain about Baby Peach because she came out of nowhere in Yoshi's Island DS, too?
I noticed that Nirvash's final form is listed as an Asspull, but I have to wonder if it really is. My impression of an Asspull is something that comes out of thin air. If that's true, then finalform Nirvash couldn't be an Asspull, due to the fact that it's actually foreshadowed when Nirvash is upgraded to spec2; or rather due to the reason Nirvash has to be 'redesigned'. The scene's showing Nirvash during the upgrade period clearly shows hints and suggestions of what would be finalform Nirvash. That is that finalform Nirvash is the fully evolved form of the archetype that it's previous two forms where built around.
Charred Knight: The reason it was an Asspull, is that it was never set up, and the thing is clearly just an excuse to force down the Broken Aesop anymore.
That Other 1 Dude: About Avatar: spiritbending is probably an example, but the Lion Turtle simply existing was a Chekhov's Gun.
On a different note, what is the difference between an Asspull and a Deus ex Machina or Diabolus ex Machina?
Peteman: An Asspull is a particularly bad case Deus Ex Machina. It's probably one of those "The Same but More" deals.
Tanto: My feeling is that a Deus ex Machina is something that's introduced particularly to resolve a plotline. An Ass Pull is more general; it can be anything from a Hand Wave to a justification to a delayed recognition of a Fridge Logic moment. The tone is more important than the function.
I think there's enough room for both of them to coexist. At any rate, Ass Pull has 151 wicks.
Sketch: A Deus ex Machina can be an Asspull, but not all Asspulls are Deus Ex Machinas. At it's most basic definition, an Asspull is something that came out of nowhere. A Deus Ex Machina is a resolution that comes out of nowhere.
Looking over the examples, not all of them are Deus Ex Machinas, but they are things that came out of nowhere.
That Other 1 Dude: But wouldn't the things that don't fall under Deus Ex Machina fall under other subtropes like Shocking Swerve (the thing about 24) or Giant Space Flea from Nowhere (Tabuu in Smash Bros.)? Regardlessly, if we don't cut this, we need to re-write the definition to a category/supertrope, and try not to be redundant (i.e. only list Asspulls on this page if they don't fall under the other categories, and otherwise put them in their respective articles).
Charred Knight: of course the Asspull can be from other tropes. It happens all the time, we have so many pages, that several scenes appear on different pages. I have put down the scene where Woden Ymir throws Sanger's sword from him on several pages like Worthy Opponent, The only one who can defeat you (I think thats the name), and others since it fits several different pages. An example of an Asspull, that is not a Deus Ex Machina, is Mu La Flaga being alive in Seed Destiny, he was hit by a Positron Cannon, and his mecha blew up. Their is no way he can still be alive, it doesn't make sense, and it looks like the Director pulled that plot point out of his ass.
That Other 1 Dude: Well then, that would be a (particularly bad) Plot Hole and/or Retcon. "something that looks like it came from someone ass" or "something that 'doesn't make sense'" are insanely subjective, and doesn't even seem like a trope.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Okay, so we need to refine the definition of Ass Pull. It's still clear that there are AssPulls—there would not be 151 Wick otherwise.
An Ass Pull is anything that the author uses to move the plot forward or resolve it that has no foreshadowing or forewarning (no true Chekhov's Gun). It's when the author breaks the Lawof Conservationof Detail by adding critical details without any warning. This includes many InDexMachinas. It also includes some, but not all, Plot Holes, Twist Endings, and RetCons.
Charred Knight: That Other 1 Dude, I explained to you the difference, their is clearly different examples not from Deus ex Machina WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU CUTLIST IT! General Ripper much? I hate some tropes here to but I would never cutlist one unless it was either a copy (which this isn't) or people as a whole hated it.
That Other 1 Dude: Because you didn't explain it until after I cut listed it, and the then description was quite literally "Deus ex Machina but worse". It's not as if Cut Listed items are deleted instantly, and anyone can provide a good argument for not cutting, it's not going to be cut.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Okay. Does the current definition and explanation satisfy? We've gotta get this off the Cut List, preferably while keeping it in existence: it is a trope, and it isn't redundant. (And someone once deleted Protest S Ong because I mistakenly CutListed it, so it's risky business doing this.)
Medinoc: I'm against cutting/lumping it too: Some Ass Pulls have nothing to do with a Deus ex Machina. It's more Checkhov's Invisible Gun : Something is here and wasn't referenced in any way before.
- I shall illustrate with Monty Python And The Holy Grail: The Holy Hand Grenade Of Antioch, and all the monks around it, are an Ass Pull: The characters act as if they had always been around, which is definitely false. The Legendary Black Beast of Aaaaarrrrrrggghhh vanishes due to a Deus ex Machina.
Andygal: Hmmm...a thought, maybe Deus ex Machina should actually be categorized as a sub-trope of Ass Pull?
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: That makes sense. I'm on it, if no one beat me to it.
[Later] Done. Okay, now that we have clarified the relationship between Asspulls and Dei Ex Machina, let's keep the Asspull page.
That Other 1 Dude: Agreed. This is what I'm thinking: Ass Pull means anything that was not at all or poorly foreshadowed; In Dex Machina (except Deus est Machina and Deus Sex Machina), Shocking Swerve, New Powers as the Plot Demands, and Giant Space Flea from Nowhere are subtropes of it, and this page is for examples that don't fall under any of the subtropes.
Raekuul: I'm putting this here, in Discussion, for now, since it technically doesn't exist outside of my mind at the moment, and it may not end up being an Ass Pull in the end.
- Byron, of AoR, as well as all of the wizards in the Dark Army, receive their power from a creature called the Wyvern... and none of this is explained until after the final battle of Season Shaman, when the Wyvern has already escaped. However, the possible Ass Pull in this is that the Wyvern cuts off the Wizards, with no warning or good reason.
Peteman: I think we should divide this into "Poorly Set Up Ex Machina", "In-Character Bullshit", and "Isn't That Uncomfortable" sections. Anyone else agree?
Most of the examples should be moved to a page like Literal Ass Pull, since people keep adding examples of characters concealing weapons in their ass. Once that's done, the page can emphasize Ass Pull as a plot element from the writer as perceived by the audience, a meta storytelling technique and not a fighting technique within the story.
Should this page by classified as a subjective trope? Seems too much like a cross-genre Just Bugs Me page to me, though maybe that's just my opinion.
Pulled this example by Anaheyla (Leaving the valid point by condensing it into the previous one that already had something similar that was edited out), because going further than that would have been too much banter (And frankly a few of the other examples probably should be cut too, including mine, but I'll leave that up to someone else):
- Except that there was never any previous evidence that Hitsugaya actually, you know, knew Utsusemi, a technique that is implied to be unique to Yoroichi's clan, and no real reason Yoroichi or Byakuya would have taught it to him. So still an Ass Pull no matter how you look at it.
Further note the point wasn't that he used Cicada, it's pretty obviously an ice tech of some sort, the point was the mechanics behind it are established in canon previously, so the tech itself can easily be explained given what's already known. The only asspull part of it is really that it came out of freaking nowhere and killed all the tension from the previous chapter, and really one could argue that backwards engineering such a tech with his Zanpakuto's moveset is plausible for a much lauded genius. Still an Asspull no doubt, that I agree with. But the only reason it is is that it came from nowhere and wasn't properly explained as to where it came from. The other parts of the example, the 'What the Hell' sound it made, getting cut in two, the blood, all that is previously established in canon already, and even the 'When did he set that up' and 'Why did he know to use that then' can be explained by very nature of the situation, as pointed out in one of the other examples.
RFD: Okay, since the rest of the Hitsugaya stuff was taken out, for any discussion, what was there is now here:
- Hitsugaya got cut in half by Halibel! If untreated, he could be the first fatality in Bleach! Just kidding... he prepared an ice mirror/clone of himself that bleeds and gasps "What the Hell" when cut in two, and he did it all in the space of a few seconds to take an attack he couldn't have possibly seen coming! What a guy!
- This could have been a gigantic Author's Saving Throw, considering the character's insane popularity with the fandom. Unless you can read Japanese and visited 2ch at about that time, you have no way of knowing.
- This Troper would like to point out that in his 2 previous fights with Arrancars, both times they released, Hitsugaya got downed almost instantly. It's only obvious that someone called a genius would see a pattern there, and make some appropriate preparations. The only questionable thing is the ice-clone talking, but compared to things that a certain other someone (*cough*Ichigo*cough*) regularly pulls out of his ass, I don't see a problem with it.
- Stunningly even the talking has an arguable canon basis in that Cicada tech, which quite literally is everything Hitsugaya did only shorter. When Yoruichi used it we literally saw a mass amount of blood and her arm fall off in the panel, and when Byakuya used it he spoke in the illusion (More of a 'Guh' sure but sound did come out nonetheless). The only real difference is that Hitsugaya's ice version appears to have lasted a bit longer. Still easily grating for many, and probably falls under the definition anyway given it wasn't properly explained at all as to where it came from, but the mechanics behind it are backed by previous events.
- Hitsugaya got cut in half by Halibel! If untreated, he could be the first fatality in Bleach! Just kidding... he prepared an ice mirror/clone of himself that bleeds and gasps "What the Hell" when cut in two, and he did it all in the space of a few seconds to take an attack he couldn't have possibly seen coming! What a guy!
Before it all got taken out. Frankly the example still up is overblown considerably given the points brought up here, though still valid given it came from nowhere and wasn't explained.
Zeful: Considering Removing the Mahou Sensei Negima examples to to the following explination:
- Doesn't the fact that it makes sense due to Personality Powers make it not an Ass Pull, even if it's very convenient?
Silver2195: Pruned the Naruto example down to just the only indisputable example (the Great Snake Escape).
RDF: Yeah, no. If you're going to cut it down to purely indisputable examples, that shifting everyone's chakra into Sasuke crap would stay too, and frankly there are enough semi-disputable examples like arguably the rest that I put back in other series that would in interest of fairness have to be cropped too before we go arbitrarily doing it for one series. Further that Gaara one is also valid given the sheer speed required to do that despite his being severely lacking in that category is a massive stretch to say the freaking least.
Silver2195: I honestly think we should do that for all series. I just don't feel qualified to do it for things I'm not familiar with.
Again, Yeah no. Garra and especially that leeching chakra crap at the very least stay with that logic. The rest admittedly are arguable, but unless you get up in gear for a majority of these, raise a discussion of them at the very least or something, there's not nearly enough reason to cut them. Do not arbitrarily cut stuff without at the very least attempting to discuss it first, particulary when no less than two are completely valid.
Silver2195: Okay. Keeping chakra leeching.
No, keeping all of it until a discussion actually takes place about these. Particularly since Garra is valid too. No one can just arbitrarily edit valid examples for little to know reason without at the very least either a valid excuse or some honest to god backing. Again, cut it out with the justifying edits.
Silver2195: Justifying Edit doesn't mean what you seem to think. I've put the examples (except the one with an actual Justifying Edit) back for now, but toned down the "Naruto sucks!" tone.
Fine, there's a good case to be made Itachi one not belonging (And especially the more random shoutout to Sasuke now that I look at it closer), so that can slide as it's more a Wall Banger than an actual Ass Pull. None of the modifying it though, you do not remotely have a good enough case to be made for changing other's examples.
Silver2195: You seem to have a strange idea of how wikis work. The burden of proof should be on the person arguing for inclusion of material.
Burden of proof? You arbitrarily took out no less than two examples that were completely valid for no adequately explained reason. Previous form stays the way it was. You'd have a bit more of a case had there been anything inherently wrong about any of the things you are chaging, but no, you're simply changing the wording of other people's examples now. Were this a wiki fine, but you better read the front page first, we work a hell of a lot more informally.
Silver2195: Perhaps "burden of proof" was bad word choice. There's nothing wrong with changing the wording of other people's examples, especially when they say things that are wrong:
- Sasuke does not use an Ass Pull in every fight. There was no Ass Pull in any of his fights in Part I.
- Sasuke's fight against Deidara was not "already bullshit-laden" before the Great Snake Escape, and the example provided no evidence that it was.
Yeah, no. We can do this all day, and I've already saved a copy. Your first point is bull, as nothing there says that (I actually culled that one as it WAS invalid). Your second point is not only moot because, yeah, it was, (You miss sharingan gaining X-Ray, microsopic vision, and somehow nailing Deidara with an illusion despite his having gained an immunity at the end much?) and secondly, again, these are other peoples examples you are changing arbitrarily for no reason. If it was grammar or spelling errors, yeah go right ahead. If something was inherently wrong, either correct it or clarify. This is none of that. You are arbitrarily changing other peoples examples to suit your own opinions rather than respecting others.
Silver2195: Sharingan had X-Ray since Kakashi Gaiden arc at least, and Sasuke did not gain microscopic vision (he saw the chakra cloud created by the swarm of nanobots) nor did he nail Deidara with an illusion.
Wrong. Dead wrong. We see a perspective shot of him looking into his arm. That wasn't a damn chakra cloud. Similarly at the end of the fight we saw he nailed Deidara with the illusion of him fading away. You have no basis for changing a damn thing.
Silver2195: You're confused. Sasuke didn't see the nanobots in his arm; the "perspective shot" was for the benefit of the viewer. And I don't recall the illusion thing.
No, you're apparently blind. A triple zoom in is a perspective no matter how you look at it, there was no chakra cloud crap whatsoever, you have no leg to stand on here. Similarly look at the end of the fight, there's the illusion Sasuke got hit with Diedara's implosion move, Diedara celebrates, then all of a sudden massive sharingan eyes are behind him. That's an illuision no matter how you look at it. Similarly I double checked Kakashi gaiden, there's no X-Ray. In short, there's still nothing wrong with that example, and again even if there was, you still have no basis for changing other peoples examples arbitrarily.
Silver2195: I give up on you. I'm taking this to Wiki Talk.
Janitor: Examples do not "belong" to a person. They belong to the wiki. Anything on the wiki can and will be edited. That's the "wiki" part of the deal.
Passer-By: Could an admin or mod kindly slap a Subjective sign on this page? Thanks.
