This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
KiTA: Would Poe Cottage be a form of Situational Sexuality?
- MitchellTF: Nah, that's only when people shift for no good reason. Nikki skirts it, Chaka avoids it by being bluntly Bisexual, Sara is bluntly Omnisexual, and others are gay/straight. Heck, some even change gender without changing sexual preferences.
- XaltatunOfAcheron: I think it's exactly the opposite of Situational Sexuality. Kids are placed in Poe because of their disclosed sexuality on the application forms.
- ProfessorSternum: So it's a subversion.]]
- KiTA: Nope, an Inversion.
- MitchellTF: Okay, I'm sorry for the Tao Debate comment, and deleting the 'nobody debates', but I was mainly referring to an instant with Merry, and in some instances Sara. But yeah, those generally don't come in Blade series itself.
- DaWrecka: Would Compulsory School Age qualify as a Justified Trope in this instance? I'm tempted to think it is, because initially at least Sara is supposed to be there to learn how to control her newly-developed powers, while Eldritch is, for reasons on which I'm not entirely clear, having to pose as a 16-year-old. No other examples come to mind, but in the case of those two it seems like they're justified.
- Xaltatun: I don't think so. It only happens when they have new I Ds issued. The four cases of age regression I remember are all different: According to the author, Sara is going to shift into a faculty role, at least part time. Caitlin Bardue is hiding - supposedly Eric Mahren got deep-sixed at ARC. Same with Circuit Breaker, who really is a teenager. And Samantha Everheart looks like a late teen, but there's no question of who she is, and she's working for Security, not a student.
- LightWarden: How'd this get into the Literature category? Was it suddenly published, making it different than fanfiction?
- KiTA: Well, it's definitely not Fan Fiction. Could be considered Web Original, is there a category for that? The canon authors have expressed an intent to get the series published as an actual novel series. Does literature have to be published in deadtree format to be considered literature?
- Winter: The wiki is not a static thing. Unless memory deceives, the web original category was added after the first round of entry pimping (the one with all the external links) for Whateley was completed. At the very least, the category was not prominent and had its components scattered across several others. I think Homestar Runner examples turned up under Western Animation for a while, and stuff like that. That's the simple answer.
The longer and less useful answer is to ask what 'literature' means. Web Original is rather an odd category, embracing as it does several media: animation, prose and poetry (the text media), various static 2-D forms (most prominently webcomics, but that was established as its own category earlier), and live-action videos of varying length. It comes down to whether 'literature' is tied to dead tree format since this wiki obviously does not play the 'Genre fiction is not literature' card.- Broken Chaos: If literature includes things that are not 'dead tree' published, then we get into a whole mess of problems involving webcomics too. That said, we also have an interesting barrier when it comes to foreign language things - Japanese creations are separated in their own sections, even though they're very similar on many levels to their 'western' (in this context, non-Japanese) counterparts. In my opinion there are a lot of things that need heavy or near-complete reorganization, considering how they've evolved, but I imagine that would be nearly impossible to do, due to the, ah, disparate opinions around the wiki in general. On-topic, if this stays as 'literature', then we have a major problem with webcomics, as well as opening the doorway for a huge amount of even-worse-than-self-published works to be placed next to, say, Shakespeare or Tolkien in examples. If this doesn't stay with literature, then we have a major problem with where to put it.
Wascally Wabbit: I hate to be paranoid, but could someone who has read this thing and isnt one of its Entry Pimps confirm that the alledged trope examples are actually there? This things ability to pop up everywhere and anywhere gives me the creeping feeling that its an elaborate troll.
- XaltatunOfAcheron: There's a loop here - I have the feeling that a lot of the authors mine TV Tropes looking for plot ideas. There are well over a dozen authors and around 150 stories (or chapters) ranging from vignettes to 80,000 + word novels, so, sooner or later they're going to get around to just about all of the useful ones.
- Winter: Most of these are legit examples. Cannot speak for examples on other pages since I have not read every story (nor wish to; some of the characters aren't all that interesting). The level of detail in most of those is a bit excessive, so feel free to trim them down.
- Mitchell TF: About the only one that bugs me is the Author Fillibuster, and Sara's M Oral Dissonance example. I don't recall EVER seeing Sara bitch about marriage. Also, I have no idea what Adults are Useless is mentioning...Companion Cube could be deleted, as it only counts when Jade is her cabbit.
- TheKingsRaven The speech that leads to Sara's Moral Dissonance example takes place in Insanity Perquisite 4. Do a wordsearch for " brand ". Also be careful not to read too much into it, it quite simply begins and ends with Sara's demon marks not matching her rhetoric of wanting her loved ones to be happy no strings attached.
Nasrudith: Does Jade even qualify for What Kind Of Lame Power Is Heart? Her animation abilities are pretty strong to begin with not only for the versatility but for the sheer difficulty in obliterating an object beyond usefulness to her. Mitchell TF: Compared to the rest of Team Kimba, HELL YES! (Think about it. Originally, all she could do was make a blanket or something move. How can she use that in battle?
Be: I have yet to start reading the Whateley Universe stuff but, so far, almost everything I've seen relating to Tennyo screamed Mary Sue and Pastafarian's note that the writer of the Tennyo stories isn't particularly good. This is just compounded by the fact she's acknowledged to have ridiculous power levels but being feared makes that excusable. Can I get some more opinions on this? Would I just be better served ignoring her as much as possible?
KiTA: Very much Your Mileage May Vary. Tennyo is powerful, but she's not really a Mary Sue — and her power causes her a lot more trouble than it's worth. She's more of an intentional deconstruction of extremely powerful superheroes: How does someone who could literally destroy the entire school if she gets too upset handle the day to day angsts of high school life?
As for Starwolf's writing style, it improves a lot after the first few stories. I find it a bit dry but not unreadable.
Be: I've since started ploughing through the thing, so to reply: No, Tennyo is absolutely a Mary Sue. A Sue among Sues, as it happens, every member of Team Kinda ticks the Sue box and Tennyo is beyond even them. Starwolf...she or he is plain not a good enough author to intentionally deconstruct that idea, I believe this is one of those cases where we're giving them too much credit, sort of like something that comes before a Sure, Why Not? moment. I'm fighting the urge to start writing my own Whateley student simply to prove (if only to myself) that I could do better.
Mercy: I've snipped the following section from the Whateley Universe page, and moved it here for two reasons. It was getting very long, and the original entry that sparked the debate wasn't really about a trope at all. I think it belongs here, if anywhere:
- You Fail Logic Forever / Perfect solution fallacy
. The staff admit that they don't really bother with most bullying because "Remove one bully, and another person is compelled by social pressure to fill the void.", apparently it never occurred to them that the extent of bullying varies with the ease of escaping punishment, or that the lack of help from staff can be psychologically damaging to victims.
- This is being taken out of context, as it as been shown multiple times that Bullies get what they deserve, either from other students, such as the "Bully Busters," a group of students who are Exactly What It Says on the Tin, and a great many teachers, and security. However, Bullies must be caught in the act, or similar, to be punished. the quote above refers to the case of a particular bully, the school "Elite" who do in fact get what they deserve. to see the full context of the quote, go here clicky. you will have to scroll down a little bit past 3 blue triangles in the centered in the page to find where the quote is from.
- Teachers and Security are almost never shown dealing with bullies, and as for letting other students deal with it: Encouraging a system of lawlessnesses and vigilantism is such good preparation for the real world.
- It's not only that, although there is a bit of Fridge Brilliance going on: Whateley is funded by heroes, neutrals, and villains, who likely would take a dim view to having young villains (read: bullies) be "persecuted." Especially when some of them have villainous children going to Whateley. There won't be school administrators out in the "real world" to save young would-be heroes from young would-be villains, and sneaking around not getting caught is an important life skill for villains. In addition, dealing with people like bullies is an important life skill for, well, everyone, but heroes especially. Finally, there are several villains in the administration — for example Hartford is an ex Alpha and uses her position to protect that group from any punishment.
- On the country, the Villains funding Whateley would find the current enforcement far too weak to provide proper training to the next generation, the school administration turn a blind eye unless they catch someone in the act or are asked for help, in the real world law enforcement is far more proactive. Similarly the heroes funding the school would want an realistic law enforcement to teach young heroes how to work with the system, rather than take matters into their own hands. Finally you forget how nutrality agreements work: Heroes don't arrest villains on campus, villains don't commit crimes on campus.
- This is being taken out of context, as it as been shown multiple times that Bullies get what they deserve, either from other students, such as the "Bully Busters," a group of students who are Exactly What It Says on the Tin, and a great many teachers, and security. However, Bullies must be caught in the act, or similar, to be punished. the quote above refers to the case of a particular bully, the school "Elite" who do in fact get what they deserve. to see the full context of the quote, go here clicky
Mercy: On a purely personal note, my experience of every school I ever attended, what I heard of every school any of my friends attended, and my observation of society since I left school, is that the lack of interest in, or action against, bullying at the Whateley Academy is simply Truth in Television. Bullies are far more likely to be rewarded than punished, in school and in later life.
Violence, vengeance and vigilantism are, in any event, the stock-in-trade of the superhero genre. Nobody buys a Wolverine comic to watch him lock himself in the men's room and call the police when confronted with a gang of mutant-hating rednecks. Violent, often disproportionate, conflict is pretty much the whole point. Imagine a Whateley story where an Alpha plays a nasty trick on Chaka, so she complains to the school authorities, and the Alpha gets detention. Wow, I'd really want to read that! Maybe the Alpha could be expelled! Gosh, that would really ramp up the action!
TheKingsRaven True enough, but remember the trope, its You Fail Logic Forever (and possibly Voodoo Shark). While it Rule of Cool & Rule of Drama are good reasons to allow bullying any attempt to justify the staff letting this slide in story is going to make them look incompetent at best and stupid at worst. Similarly it might be Truth In Telivision but its just as bad an idea in the real world as it is in storeys.
Mercy: At least the Whateley staff have a rationale for turning a blind eye, however dubious, unlike the real world where all sorts of pious rhetoric is expended on the evils of bullying while in reality authorities universally tolerate, usually encourage, and often participate in the practice. One could describe Whateley as callous perhaps, realistic certainly, but I'm not sure about illogical.
The Kings Raven For the logical point, stick to the argument in question: "there is no point opposing bullying because if we stop one another will take their place". This is a textbook example of the perfect solution fallacy. If you think rationally you'll come to the obvious conclusion a school where the staff make an honest effort to oppose bullying will, all else being equal, have less bullys then one where the staff don't bother.
Jonn: Ki TA, why did you delete my addition of the "Squick" trope to the page?
KiTA: I found the wording to be a bit odd, and the choice of transgenderism as the squick factor a bit off — especially when there are other squicky things to mention. It'd be like someone adding "Squick: It has furries in it, which upsets some people" to every entry in Furry Comic. I intended to go back and expand but forgot.
Frankie Elric: Anybody want to do a Whateley Universe character sheet? I'm surprised that nobody haven't done that yet.
Coolzar: I know everyone says Tennyo isn't a Mary Sue, but what about the other characters. I mean, just looking at Fey and Carmilla, they are almost just as powerful as Tennyo, have practically none of the hang ups, and are 2 of the most beautiful girls in the school, and although not as powerful, Chaka probably fits the bill too. Come to think of it, although grossly overpowered, Tennyo is probably one of the more balanced characters, So Yeah.
KiTA: I haven't finished all the stories, but yeah, they pretty much do scream sue. However, the important thing to remember that as superhero kids, some of the common sue traits (for example, being attractive, having superpowers, etc) don't apply. Being a perfect character isn't a 100% trigger for suedom — that's The Ace. Or something similar. They definitely skirt the issue but the universe doesn't seem to really bend to their will, which is the real trigger for suedom.
Be: "The universe doesn't seem to really bend to their will" is just not true. You can argue it about the other members of Team Kimba, but not when it comes to the Reality Warper Tennyo - she's a Reality Warper, people!
Discussing Bad Powers, Bad People:
- Bad Powers, Bad People: Averted, most powers have little effect on one's moral alignment. Sara, for instance, is actually quite nice despite, you know, eating puppies.
- This is at least partly subject to your personally beliefs, especially your take on sexuality and sexual freedom... Sarah is a Sex Demon who feels very little compunction to restrain herself...
- The real question isn't your views on sexuality but whether you believe its ethical to have sex with anyone under the influence of Sarah's lust aura. This got especially stupid when Sara's author wrote a guide to mutant sexuality (from Sarah's POV) that said emotion manipulation was ok because people can still say no... despite people with identical yet ''weaker'' powers being able to freeze people in the middle of battle.
- Basically, she exudes roofies. That sounds like date-rape all the time.
- KiTA Doesn't Fey emit the same kind of aura? As well as other characters like Medusa et all? Does that mean Fey and Sara aren't allowed to date? Or do they just have to meet their future mates online before running into them IRL? It's not like Sara runs around intentionally raping everyone she can get her.. er.. tentacles on.
- Suckey as it is they pretty shouldn't be dating, people immune to their powers are an option though.
- Well, forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't their powers just make them really attractive to people around them? How is that different than say, random Exemplar #510?
- This is at least partly subject to your personally beliefs, especially your take on sexuality and sexual freedom... Sarah is a Sex Demon who feels very little compunction to restrain herself...
- It's because that the 'lust aura', or whatever you call it that Fey, Sara, ect ect exude influence emotions, and in Fey's case, even orientation (it even mentions that 'they gays want her' on the trope page). In this case, it isn't the fact that they're good lucking, it's the fact that they influence emotions and even orientation, something I would hope most people object to. So yes, I can't exactly blame people for finding bad implications from the auras in-verse or out, especially concerning a 'Goddess of Lust' with a rather checkered history.
- First, can they suppress those auras? Being attractive mundanely doesn't move anything from you to the target that creates a real change in their brains except visually. Real pheromones do not work on people because our senses of smell are pathetic. If you're arguing that reaching out and altering someone's chemistry is all right, then roofies are all right.
- KiTA: I still don't think that necessarily fits under Bad Powers, Bad People — the trope is that having evil powers makes you evil. Perhaps under Values Dissonance, Unfortunate Implications, or What the Hell, Hero?? Or all three?
- The lust aura pretty much makes you able to take advantage of people who can't resist it, and acting on those feelings while someone is being manipulated is wrong. If that isn't a bad power, I don't know what is.
- KiTA: You're probably right — but is Sara a bad person? Or Fey? That's the point of the Bad Powers, Bad People trope.
- Then put the entire thing back up as a aversion. And as for Sara being a bad person, well... she isn't exactly nice.
