Discussion YMMV / TheFalconAndTheWinterSoldierEpisode4TheWholeWorldIsWatching

I feel that oversimplifies the moral complexities involved that make this more a gray situation than just a moment where John is purely irredeemable. From his perspective that guy he killed just seconds before was holding him to allow Karli to get a shot in to outright kill him, to which Lemar, his best friend, responded to the situation by diving in to save him, only to get killed for it. To him, his best friend just got killed for saving him and Karli's allies are accomplices who enabled this situation to happen. From an emotional perspective, his actions are understandable and the Flag-Smashers didn't do themselves any favors here by trying to murder him in the first place. Now is this a thing that's a traditional hero would do? No, but this is why we have a term for characters who don't conform to traditional hero standards while not being outright evil villains: Anti-Heroes.

I disagree. Thought the line between anti-hero and villain is often only where the author defines it, I think the difference between anti-hero and hero sliding into villainy in this case is everything surrounding it and the brutality going beyond catharsis into savagery. While he was emotionally compromised and taking out a known terrorist, he was taking his rage out on an accomplice of the act that set him over the edge, who was unarmed and begging for his life in front of a crowd of innocent onlookers and, for big symbolism points, used the a shield as a weapon showing he's completely disregarding what it and he are supposed to stand for.

It may end up being a rock bottom moment of weakness in light of later episodes but it's clear to me what the Intended Audience Reaction is.

Honestly, I say wait it out and put it on the general YMMV page depending on how it plays out.

The scene was clearly supposed to indicate him slipping into an unforgivable state but depending on many things such as how he reacts to it and hell, whether the guy is actually dead or not will change the heinousness of his objectively heinous act.

That said, I kinda gotta agree with Euan that, you know. Beating a pleading man to death is bad. Even if he, by Rube Goldberg rules, arguably caused your friends (assumed) death.

I don't think savagery is actually a factor in the line between Anti-Hero and Villain. I mean a type of Anti-Hero there is are the kind that have no problems brutally murdering their enemies and invoking Pay Evil unto Evil. You know, guys like the Punisher and Red Hood, they are good examples of this.

And while he is merely an accomplice to the act that doesn't change the fact that the Flag-Smashers, him included, tried to murder him just seconds earlier. He may have been helpless at that specific moment, but he wasn't seconds before that. I mean if someone was helping to murder you, and someone close to you dies trying to save you and you have one of them at your mercy and they beg for mercy: why should he give them any? If they weren't going to show any mercy by killing him what right do they actually have to beg for their own lives from the man they just tried to kill?

It's not a squeaky hero thing, but the thing about John Walker that made him different from in the comics was that he wasn't a hero like Steve, he was more of a Anti-Hero Substitute, which I think is the point the show is displaying. And in regards to the legacy, I don't think Steve would be in a position to judge someone who did irrational and questionable things over his best friend. He kinda knows a lot about that himself.

And Tropers/Larkmarn, I'm not even saying that it isn't bad, just that it's not an action that makes him irredeemably evil. Also to say that his action is objectively heinous is to say that it's undeniably is, which I feel isn't true since this is more a subjective thing.

It might've been if the Flag-Smashers didn't try to kill him and if Lemar didn't die but both those things are true. Also, you say that his death was assumed but I think it's obvious that Lemar is dead. I mean he was a normal man who was hit by a Super Soldier into a concrete column. There's no way he could've survived, especially since he had no head protection, unlike John.

I also think it crosses the Moral Event Horizon (obviously, or I wouldn't have put it in :)), because of how Walker reacts through the whole chain of events. First of all, Lemar's death is very obviously an accident, and Karli is deeply shocked by it - she's obviously not really in control of her powers and didn't really understand how strong she really is until this happened(contrast to Bucky who is still holding back because he knows he can easily hurt people). She then runs away, likely because she is scared of what Walker might do, but also because running means she won't accidentally kill anyone again. Obviously, Karli is not an innocent, she has murdered the GRC troops and planned to kill Walker, but her reaction here I think shows that she's not really used to seeing people die and die by her hand. Walker is, and I think that's an important difference - he should be aware both how situations like this can get out of control, and that acting while you're emotionally devastated by the death of someone is not the best of ideas (somewhere, Tony Stark feels his ears ringing.)

John, of course, is shaken to the core by Lemar's death, he has been losing it continuously over the episode, and is even more hyped up bc of the serum - unsurprisingly, he reacts with rage, and he wants to find someone to hurt. And here we have Nico(?), who is one of the Flag-Smashers, but not one of the combatants. Who is running, who pleads for mercy when Walker catches him. Who says he didn't do it (i.e. kill Hoskins). And I think John's reaction here is what makes it crossing the Moral Event Horizon, because if you look at his face, this isn't him having lost it, it's him wanting to hurt someone. He wants to kill this guy,he wants it to be painful. He uses a situation where he is explicitly the one in power to distribute punishment, with the shield, because he is in pain over having lost his friend. And I totally understand why he would want to do that, I get why he feels like he does, and I still think he is doing something irredeemable in this moment, because he is using his status to murder someone who has surrendered, to satisfy his own need for revenge.