I'm glad to see someone bringing this up on on the discussion page. The history on the YMMV had me worried. Anyway,
You are aboslutely correct about Shiroe being Mary Tzu. I'd like to argue with you on that point, but I can't. When it comes to stragedy, no one is better than him in this story. However, I disagree that he is a Mary Sue because that's a much broader term.
First, Mary Sue generally have harems which Shiroe does not have. Second, as an enchanter he is guaranteed to lose a straightforwad fight without back up. Third, a great deal of Shiroe's fame comes from being part of DTP rather than being a fantastic one person army or something like that. Fourth, Shiroe is not a new player. He's level 90; he's had time to develop his skills (both game ability and otherwise) so a high rate of success is better justified than for someone like Kirito who is starting on the ground floor with everyone else. Fifth, Shiroe doesn't solve everything himself. It was Nyanta who discovered how to make game food taste like real food and even with this Shiroe required aid from the Crescent Moon Alliance to make use of it. He forms Log Horizon because he can't fix everything himself and Mary Sue generally don't need help for anything. Sixth, he doesn't have anything unique to himself; the griffon whistle, for instance, is shared by the DTP.
For these reasons, I'd like to remove Shiroe from Mary Sue and keep him as Mary Tzu.
I agree that it's pretty obvious Shiroe would lose a one-on-one fight with an equal level martial class, but that's the whole point of his character. The author of this series has a history of creating "mental genius heroes" who use brain over brawn to solve their problems. The author also has these heroes work towards socioeconomic and sociopolitical change. Basically a pen is mighter than the sword, across a vast distance. In that respect, the DTP was largely as successful as they were, because Shiroe did all the crucial planning. Sure, he couldn't have done those quests solo, but they couldn't have done those quests as a group without his tactics. It's no different than how a nation with a massive strong army will repeatedly lose without an equally great general to lead them. Shiroe may not swing sword, but he certainly tells the sword where it must swing. Time and time again, people in the story comment how DTP was epic because they won impossible quests... but with Shiroe's godlike mastery of the game system. Even former members of the DTP keep gushing over how Shiroe was so cool (harem master Soujirou comes to mind).
Shiroe does pick up a unique power later in the novel. Spoiler tag, because I don't know if the anime will get to that point: he gets this ability that lets him predict people's next move (or is able to generate how by their stats) that will happen in the next 10 to 30 seconds. For a tactician, that's a HUGE advantage. Nyanta learning the secret of cooking first, was largely because the game's "laws of physics" prevented him from using the Scientific Method to unlock it (and Shiroe's passing remarks indicate he tried). All it took was for Nyanta to explain why Shiroe couldn't do it and then... BAM!!! Shiroe was brainstorming how that info could be used to revolutionize things — not the "take over the city" part quite yet, but he was thinking of advantages it could do. The anime didn't show it, but in the book, Shiroe was also brainstorming how the other "secondary class skills" could be used innovative like that.
Because Shiroe is such an author's pet of a character (i.e. the mentalist who changes the world), I think there's strong Mary Sue in him. However the not getting a harem (though a cute ninja is fine too), Shiroe actually having to "learn" his tricks (as gamebreaking as they end up being), and not being a true solo player do counterbalance it. You've also reminded me that while Shiroe bends the game system to his advantage, he still hits walls when going to far. Kirito of SAO actually does things the game designer claims were impossible. I agree that Mary Tzu fits better with less argument.
Edited by 132.3.29.78
Shiroe is a Mary Sue, as much as Kirito is one for SAO. Myssa Rei disagrees, and that's great, but YMMV are opinion tropes. Let's argue about it here. It's well known that Mary Sue lead to edit wars, and that's why we're supposed to do it in the discussion page.
From Myssa Rei counterargument: Books 6 and 7 show that there are situations that Shiroe simply can't plan for and, whats more, when his plans fair, they fail catastrophically — see the failure of negotiations with the Yamato clan holding the secret of the gold drops (they flatly said no) that ends with him getting KILLED. That said, when guile fails, force is always an option...
In a world where Death Is a Slap on the Wrist, dying doesn't have anywhere near the same impact as it does with Final Death. My initial wording was too exact. Because he lost doesn't remove being a Mary Sue. He gets what he wants in the end, by having another plan. Shiroe is still the coolest guy to be. He will not be ultimately denied of his prize, and the fact that it's just more strategy for him to ponder over plays into Mary Tzu. Needlessly turning to violence is still strategy (which is Shiroe's whole appeal). It's just another channel of the same ultimate goal. It's NOT a failure. It's more spotlighting that Shiroe is an uber strategist. He isn't merely Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, and John Keynes in one body: he's also gets to be a Clausewitz
too. ("War is the continuation of Politik by other means.") Is there any form of strategy Shiroe doesn't know? He has the added intellect of John Fuller, Milton Friedman, and Basil Hart.
Arguing that a "Perfect Warlord" cannot lose reminds me of this Erfworld strip
◊. It's an awesome webcomic by the way.
Edited by 70.160.75.238 Hide / Show Replies