The Master
I'm confused about the following example:
"In anime, the Accidental Pervert is usually a bumbling, supposedly likable character; if the "target" freaks out, her reaction is played for comedy. More serious plots may feature outright, deliberate harassment, but very often the heroine will be scolded for fighting back or told not to make such a big deal out of it. Often it's not entirely clear whether the story is on the heroine's side ("sexual harassment is bad"), or backing up society's view ("the heroine needs to accept her lot in life as uncomplaining, submissive victim"). This could be due to the fact that Most Writers Are Male. In MARS, for example, Kira, the heroine, is assaulted while at her work. Naturally, she retaliates. Her boss, however, forces her to apologize to her attacker, even though she is the victim. The story is just ambiguous enough to leave the reader wondering if the author takes the manager's side or the best friend's. If you were to look at a lot of shoujo manga, you will notice that the girl is considered "pure" and more "chaste" if she just quietly and tearfully takes the groping from the molester. It is generally up to her boyfriend to call the molester on it and protect her, because a woman should never protect herself. However, most shoujo manga that indulge in this are fantasies in the vein of romance novels and bodice-rippers, so they don't necessarily reflect society's actual opinions."
Most of it I get, but maybe I misunderstand what the "accidental pervert" trope is about. As I understand the trope it is about characters who frequently are placed in situations where they appear to be acting perverted, or where they accidentally do things that would be perverted if they were intentional. I'm not sure how such a character being portrayed sympathetically or the situation being played or laughs would be values dissonance, or at least I don't know what culture would find that unacceptable.
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IMO, the Accidental Pervert trope can be considered as having a kind of troubling subtext. You're right that it deals with unintentional actions, and yeah, there's no reason not to sympathize with someone who does something wrong accidentally. However, it also presents sexual harassment as something funny, and the victim is presented as comically over-reacting.
Basically, whether the harassment is intended or not and regardless of whether it's played for laughs, it seems like the message is that it's bad for a victim to make an uproar about it.
Hodor
The Master
I'm confused about this example too:
"Of course, both concepts qualify completely as Truth in Television, in both cultures. "Gay men" are about as hard to pin down as "men" period. From Japan alone we got contrasting examples in Ash Crimson from The King Of Fighters, who is very popular in Japan but is hated everywhere else for being flamboyant and looking girly, and Kenshiro from the Fist of the North Star, who is universally considered to be one of the manliest man in fiction, despite (or even because) doing a lot of crying (crying Manly Tears, that is)."
What does this mean "Gay men are about as hard to pin down as men period". What is hard to pin down about men? Maybe what is meant by man is the concept of masculinity, or perhaps it is an attempt to be inclusive of transgender and similar concepts, but to me is just comes across that whoever wrote this needs to retake sex ed. Perhaps it should be reworded?
Edited by Drolyt
Neves783, beginner
Considering that this is Values Dissonance we're talking about, there's another I couldn't grasp. Please... I need some further explanation on these stuff.
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First (This one's really confusing to boot.):
- Tall Dark And Bishoujo Sakaki from Azumanga Daioh has huge self-esteem issues and wishes she looked more like Chiyo-chan, a fact that is often played for comedy. This may actually be a joke that benefits from values dissonance, as it seems much sillier to those who are not fully aware of the casual pedophilia that informs modern Japanese ideas of beauty.
Second (And it is really disturbing, since it works BOTH ways in our country.):
- In Loveless, it is very obvious to most of the teachers at Ritsuka's school and his personal therapist that he is being abused by his mother, but no one does anything about it. This is a grade school student, and no one asks him where he got those bruises! When his teacher does attempt to become more involved with Ritsuka's homelife, as she is rightly concerned about him, she is met with scorn from her faculty, Ritsuka, Soubi, Ritsuka's family, and generally everyone. Again, very Japanese values at work here. Essentially, under a Japanese code of behavioural conduct, Ritsuka's family and their actions around him are a private affair not to be meddled with by outsiders. Therefore, his teacher is breaking a big social taboo by attempting to establish a greater understanding of the problems with the parents' behaviour. Under Western ideologies, she is in the right and is fulfilling the duties of a responsible adult and teacher by looking out for her students while the other staff are in the wrong for letting a child abuse case go unpunished.
Third (Though I think it's more because of a "don't cry when punished" attitude.):
- The character of Izumi in Fullmetal Alchemist. To a Westerner, her Training From Hell and habit of randomly smacking Al and Ed borders on the sadistic, and it is particularly jarring when she behaves this way after they've experienced a lot of trauma, especially when what she scolds them for (using alchemy to try to bring someone back from the dead) is something she attempted herself. Apparently, she comes across as more stern but loving to an Eastern audience.
Fourth (There IS a gun culture in our country, but very far from that of the States; any care what a good blow to the case should be in this case?):
- Yet another gun-related one is found in an episode of Ghost in The Shell. When Tobusa shoots and disables a cyborg (who happens to have a VERY rich father) he has to defend his actions in court. The attorney for the defense attacks him for his unorthodox choice of weapon (he uses a Mateba autorevolver instead of the automatics used by the rest of Section 9) and his extreme skill with it. The attorney explained the former as him simply liking the weapon, and dramatically attacking the long hours of practice as liking to fire his gun, which prompts a stammered defense and seems to be a serious blow. In a country that never developed a gun culture, this might make sense, but to an American audience, it just doesn't work.
The examples in the first three are events that I could easily see happening in the United States. The writer is interpreting Values Dissonance in a situation where it doesn't actually exist.
The fourth could be a valid example- I think what the writer is saying is that in America it wouldn't be seen as unusual for a police officer to spend time at the firing range. But even in the context of Ghost In The Shell this makes no sense- the characters are an elite SWAT team. They'd be expected to spend a great deal of time at a firing range.
I've deleted all of them pending clearer explanations, as in my judgment they don't meet the definition of the trope. I'd delete more but there's so much Natter in here I'd end up destroying most of the page. Tropers, please stop with the Conversation In The Main Page. Let's try to bring this up to code.
Edited by SomeGuy See you in the discussion pages.
- Some have interpreted this to mean that the episode places the blame on Kisa's shoulders, saying that she should be strong enough to face the bullies alone, without relying on adult intervention. This is very different from the Western approach, which would punish the bullies first and foremost.
Wait, guys, you can't be serious here, can you?
From what I can tell it looks exactly the way it work in west like for example here http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?page=1&tid=2717
, post #95863
and zero tolerance bs where builled can be suspended for fighting back (http://www.towleroad.com/2011/03/watch-bullied-kid-snaps-takes-down-kid-who-is-bullying-him.html)
Let's now forget about writing apologies to rapists(http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/08/17/297888/missouri-school-sued-for-allegedly-making-special-ed-student-write-apology-letter-to-her-rapist/) school got sued though.
From personal experience I can tell that 'tough the fuck up and fight back' that I heard doesn't look like "punish the bullies first and foremost"
Are you living in ivory tower?
DAMN interface. Looks like I replied instead of creating new topic. ORZ
Edited by Greag
Personally, I have a very vague idea of this:
- In many anime, a character will be reprimanded for laughing loudly, crying or generally showing an "excess of emotion." While this may be universally understood in certain places (such as in an important meeting, in the cinema or in a library), it can be confusing if the character is just sitting with friends or talking to their parents. It only makes sense once you realize the emphasis Japanese culture puts on dignity, and not bothering other people with your personal problems.
Does it work somehow like this:
- This person is crying among his circle of friends.
- In America, they'll say "Poor dude, let's help him out!"
- In Japan, they'll say "The heck, you're over-reacting, dude!"
Something like that, yes, though it's a bit more general and wide-ranging. Restraint and decorum are enouraged at all times - a Large Ham would get some very odd looks. Matter of fact, that might be why characters in anime are often so hammy.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Oh, I see...
That explains why being a Large Ham is so very much a big deal in Japanese productions - not to mention having American characters often stereotyped as such hams.
And sometimes I wish our universe and the Tokimeki Memorial universe shall one day converge.
Removed:
- The situation is reversed with the gesture where someone pulls down their bottom eyelid and sticks their tongue out at the victim, which is apparently Japan's equivalent of flipping people off. This seems to be completely ignored by Western censors, since the face doesn't mean anything to Western viewers.
From what I can tell, this gesture is relatively harmless, since it is seen performed by very young kids at times when they taunt each other — IMO, it's more like blowing a raspberry, and if so, there's no reason to censor it in the first place.
I've been wondering about that for quite a while, but I'm not sure if it is Values Dissonance or perhaps just an inaccurate translation for lack of a better word.
It seems to me that many conflicts are retrospectively downplayed as "misunderstandings". Severe bullying finally ends? "Glad we cleared up our misunderstanding." Reconciliation after a really harsh breakup? (Specific example, Sailor Moon R, where Mamoru broke up rather cruelly with Usagi, who spent half the season being extremely upset about it) - "Seems that you finally cleared up the misunderstanding between you."
To me, the term "misunderstanding" rarely conveys the gravity of what happened. So, I wonder if this is a cultural thing, or if the Japanese word for misunderstanding just carries more weight. (Or if I'm just too nit-picky.)
Edited by Blackribbon