There's at least 210 stories, so 18 shouldn't be too many. Not sure about the other two, though I assume those two companions listed as contenders for greats aren't widely disliked.
Edited by OldManHoOh
I notice that five of them are from Tennant and four are from Tom Baker, though considering how popular they are and how long they lasted in the role, I suppose it's not that skewed.
1) Mel, maybe. Peri...well she wasn't great but she did ok in a few stories.
2) Think that's going too far. The one that probably springs to everyone's mind, Colin Baker, has plenty of external circumstances during his run (and is pretty damn excellent in Big Finish, fyi).
Fair enough, just ignore the brackets - he had plenty of external circumstances during his run. A best/worst Doctor section is probably a bit too broad, inviting an edit war for very little gain. It's straightforward enough to explain why a story is good/bad, but doing the same for an entire Doctor's tenure...isn't.
You can't list the Best and Worst Doctors, because you are Wrong.
Even if you are right - as most people hate the 6th (the angry one) - no matter how many people agree with you, there are those that will disagree. Each brings to the table their own quirks. Some love them and some hate them, but I believe the best option is just to list those options and their pros and cons. Maybe some Doctors have more pros while others have more cons, but you can't declare "best" or "worst" since every doctor is called by some fans "MY Doctor", and it is presumptuous to say they less deserve that appreciation.
Edited by 59.167.212.69
Great Guide - But Pointless?
G'day,
Just came across this great guide to writing for the new WHO, and wanted to say kudos, as it's - great.
But -
The Doctor Who office are not accepting script suggestions... in any way shape or form... even from agents... unless you happen to be Neil Gaiman.
They wont look at your ideas, much less read them, unless you're a very strongly established writer.
I know, sucks to be us, right. Spend a life time dreaming up ideas for your favourite show, go to film school, learn the craft... all for nought.
PS Oh, and I see why I'm not established... I didn't even notice the site "got to know me" as cosmichob instead of cosmichobo. :)
Edited by cosmichob Hide / Show Replies
First of all - G'day back, fellow Aussie ;)
Secondly - I don't think anyone is seriously expecting to get a script through the doors of the BBC. The Doctor Who page is dedicated to cataloguing and describing how the tropes are used in the show, this page in turn is based on how the tropes are selected and put the show together. That's...pretty much it. Just for Fun.
Also, while BBC may not be accepting any scripts, hell Big Finish might one day, who knows?
Edited by Grimace
What is it with all the Australians on the Doctor Who Page? I'm not complaining, I'm an Australian myself, I just find it weird. Anyway . . .
Cosmichobo, some shows have been known to accept fan-submitted scripts if they're good enough. Star Trek supposedly got hundreds of fan-made scripts, and filmed all of the good ones (like, one ore two. Apparently Johnathan Frakes directed one of these[citation needed]). But that's not why I'm commenting. I'm commenting to say that you're wrong. I know that you're wrong because I plan on writing a story based on the Doctor Who Universe, with characters, stories & a manner that could potentially be called "The Next Doctor Who".
Grimace, you're right in saying it's "just for fun", which I disagree with on a semantic point, but is fundamentally accurate as although I am using the guide practically, it's just for my blog - absurdwordnerd.blogspot.com.au - and although I deny it at every turn, the idea is just as harmless as fanfiction.
Although I wasn't inspired by this list, when I learned of its existence, I sought it out. Only a fool wouldn't, in my position.
See, I think the thing that BOTH of you missed is that when the page says "Write the NEXT Doctor Who", since this could be interpreted as "the next regeneration" you may have taken it out of context. As far as I'm concerned something like, say, my upcoming Blog Fiction is "the Next Doctor Who" in the same was as Digimon was considered "Another/the Next Pokemon".
Also, you should totally check out my blog, because it's awesome and I'm a shameless self-promoter.
All this talk about Greats and Fails is, it seems increasingly clear to me, outside the scope of this article. The page is about how to tell a Doctor Who story; and, while there's certainly some educational value in studying how good/bad stories are written/directed/acted/whatever, I think it's ultimately beside the point. And just look at this discussion page: it's virtually all about Tropers not agreeing on what stories make the cut, and what criteria to use, and so on. (I am certainly not excluding myself from a share of the blame here.) It's divisive; it's counterproductive; the writeups aren't about what makes a story well-constructed or well-told but serve as an excuse for Tropers to rave about their very mostest favoritest story evar; it feels bolted on to a page that's really about something else entirely.
tl;dr: I think we should nuke the whole best/worst stories section. Possibly it could be moved someplace else, though I admit I can't think of a natural home for it.
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I'm starting to agree - I do think explaining which stories are considered good and why they are is useful, and at the beginning it had about half-a-dozen stories from the classic series, and one or two from the new, that were universally considered greats (Pyramids, City of Death, Androzani etc). But people keep just adding the stories they like. Which are usually just good, not "Great".
Sure, there are loads of stand-out stories, but without a method of deciding/vetting what goes in there, it'll keep growing unchecked. So I vote we nuke it unless there's a way to keep the entries exlusively to those unanimously agreed "Great" (somehow).
I think that nuking the whole best/worst section sounds like a good idea. As is clear from this discussion page, it's getting out of hand, and everyone who just notices the main page is going to want to explain why *insert episode* is the greatest of Who ever. Maybe move what's already written to Sugarwiki/Darthwiki. Having best/worst lists in general only produces discussion about why what is so good or bad. Let's just stop it before someone actually adds a list of best/worst Doctors.
Maybe we could examine what elements and tropes in previous successful stories has worked and what hasn't, without explicitly putting up a list of "best stories".
OK, it is done. Gushing is now at Gush / Doctor Who; ranting at WallBangers / DoctorWho. (Editing help is greatly appreciated as I attempt to merge it with content already present.)
I've left the Marmite stories alone for now, for lack of a good place to put them. Any ideas?
Edited by Nightsky
YMMV: Doctor Who?
I can't think of any suitable trope to put them under at the moment.
If we can't find anywhere to move them, we should just delete them, as it is now, the page looks weird at the bottom with only the marmites.
Edited by TITO
Another one about "the Greats" - is "The Waters of Mars" really considered a "great"? It's good, not denying that. I liked it a good deal, would watch and enjoy again etc etc, but I wasn't aware it was considered at the same level as Blink, Caves, Pyramids of Mars, Midnight etc.
Wanted to ask before chopping, as it seemed the polite thing to do.
Edited by Grimace Hide / Show Replies
Putting it here for now. Again, solid, B+, thumbs up episode, but wasn't aware it was considered one of the all-time greats. Could very well be wrong though, feel free to correct.
- The Waters of Mars - David Tennant, 2009. Tennant's penultimate story features his Doctor on the first human off-world colony... on the day of its mysterious destruction. Features some of Tennant's best acting, one of the scariest threats the show has ever had, and along with it some of the darkest moments. Another of Russell T Davies' best scripts, co-written by Phil Ford; a The Sarah Jane Adventures writer for the Trickster and Androvax episodes.
It's super effective.
Hmm, were The Unquiet Dead, Dalek and Father's Day not considered to be that scary? The Empty Child and The Doctor Dances are scarier, but the first "really scary" episodes?
Also, has there been any consensus on the series 5 and 2009 specials?
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Oh, they're considered scary, but I think classifying Empty Child/Doctor Dances as the first "really scary" is pretty fair. The others had the usual amount of scaryness expected from Dr Who, but that two-parter was the first one designed from the ground up to make you terrified of people in gas masks asking if you were their mummy.
I don't think it's been long enough to build consensus on the specials and s5. Some people adored End of Time, others thought it wangsty, some (like me!) adore the 11th Doc, others are still getting used to him, so on and so forth.
The End of Time already fits under the "new series finales" under The Marmite anyway.
Edited by OldManHoOh
I know, I was just using EOT as an example. Waters of Mars is probably the highest regarded, but I'm not aware of it being considered a "great" (see below), and to my knowledge both "Next Doctor" and "Planet of the Metal Eel-thingys" are considered decent romps.
Edited by Grimace2
It's super effective.
It's super effective.
Can someone please give the "Bad Writing" examples some elaboration? All that they're really saying is "this is atrociously written" and not much else.
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Sorry for removing the section, but the Fear Her one was the last straw. And I don't even LIKE Fear Her.
Have tried to elaborate on "The Twin Dilemma" and "Time and the Rani" since, let's face it, those two have to appear in that section for the simple reason that they're probably the two most heavily-reviled serials in the serial's history.
Have tried to elaborate on "The Twin Dilemma" and "Time and the Rani" since, let's face it, those two have to appear in that section for the simple reason that they're probably the two most heavily-reviled serials in the serial's history.
Haven't seen that much of the older series, but thanks for expanding on those two.
I think that "The Eleventh Hour"Should be added to the greats. It was not only an impressive intro to doctor 5, but it balance humor with a tense and action packed thrill ride where the doctor saves the world with no tardis, no screwdriver, just whatever he can find. It's what got me into doctor who and it will get anyone in.
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I love it too, but All-Time Great doesn't equal Episode I Really Liked. I love "Enlightenment" and "The Visitation", too, but that doesn't mean I think they belong on the list of truly great greats.
Put another way: Gallifrey Base runs a survey ranking the serials. The top five were: 1. Talons of Weng-Chiang; 2. Empty Child/ Doctor Dances; 3. Caves of Androzani; 4. Robots of Death; 5. Blink. Nor did any of those finish outside the top ten last year.
"The Eleventh Hour", as much as you and I loved it, doesn't seem poised to join them. It scored an 8.37 / 10 average on Gallifrey Base; if ranked in the same survey I mentioned above (which was released before the season 31 began), it'd have placed 25th (out of about 200): a solid performer, certainly well above average, but not in the creme de la creme.
Give it time. Consensus will emerge, and once it does, it's pretty stable.
Edited by Nightsky
>>Amy's Choice, Vincent and the Doctor here?
Added to the "All-time greats" section today.
My thought: let's wait a year or so before we add anything from the current series to any list, be it of all-time greats or fails. It takes a while for consensus to emerge.
Edited by Nightsky
Three things:
1) Should Romana and K9 be added to the list of greatest companions and Peri and Mel to the list of worst?
2) Should there be a list of best and worst Doctors as well or is that going too far?
3) Is 18 stories in the greatest stories list too many? What would be the ideal number?
Edited by Dent42 Hide / Show Replies