Main Whatmeasure Is A Non Badass Discussion

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09:03:09 AM Feb 16th 2017
Non-badasses are better. I feel like even this page is disrespectful to them. I feel like this whole wiki is full of that attitude - that characters who "solve" problems with their fists are better than the ones who solve problems with their brains.

I mean, I'd go so far as to say that all the world's problems are due to the glorification of fists-over-brains, and that the one way to solve everything is to commit to brains-over-fists, but that's just me.
03:53:03 PM Apr 6th 2014
The page seems to be contradictory. Women can be more likely to get this than men, or they can be less likely to get this than men, but they definitely can't be both.
12:50:47 PM Oct 27th 2012
Cut this example:

Ginny and Tonks have proven to be badass. With Lily and Molly, it's more Underestimating Badassery. Molly was the one who killed Belatrix Lestrange, after all. The first thing we hear about Lily is that she gave her life for her child's. If that's not Badass, I don't know what is.
07:29:20 AM Nov 25th 2012
I think it's less because they're not badass, but because fandom is totally hellbent on bashing either of these women and callt hem antifeminist. Ginny? She's a Mary Sue and only became stronger to have Harry kissing her feet. Molly? She's a HOUSEWIFE and she defeated Saint Bellatrix Patron of Deminism and Dracon In Leather Pants extraordinaire. Tonks? How dare she not be the bestest and undefeatable Auror as well as get married to an older man! Lily? Whoooooore, she gave her life for her kid, this means she's defeated by a man to protect another male and that she's defined by her motherhood and nothing else.

All of these arguments have been used by misogynistic HP fans who want to bring them down. So I'm sorry, but I think they fit in here. I'll add them back, but I'll also be fair and point out WHY they belong in the trope.
07:31:23 AM Jun 1st 2017
edited by Sakubara
So basically this falls more under Real Women Don't Wear Dresses, in fact, you can argue that while this trope should still remain gender neutral despite the existence of that trope you can alternatively call this trope Real Men Don't Feel Angst (not just Real Men Dont Cry, but according to those who believe in this trope, real badasses should only react with Angst? What Angst?).
03:38:19 PM Jan 24th 2012
Is this YMMV if it happens in-universe?
12:08:37 AM Jul 20th 2011
Did the entire meaning of this trope radically shift in the past several months?
06:26:36 AM May 25th 2011
I am not too sure Celia from Orderofthe Stick is an example as I thought Celia was hated because of her stupid actions alone.

04:09:35 AM Sep 22nd 2010
edited by 18-Till-I-Die
I would like to ask a question I did in the archived discussion and hopefully get a straight answer this time:

Is this, or is it not, "Gushing about Characters the Fandom Hates but You Like"?

Because if it is not, then I see no reason that about half or more of these people should be here. If we're basing these characters on the actual definition of badass, there are several who simply do not apply. Period. If this is a page where people can talk up some character they live for but everyone else things is an asshole (I'm looking at you Raiden fans) then please can we rename it? Or remove the entries which don't fit that description?

Because simply editing out any opposing opinion as "natter" (PROTIP: it's not, and even if it were, the fact you're argument is so weak even general conversation dismantles it is not encouraging) only goes to show how inately weak the position of these people on the list are.

If you have an argument whereby these people should count as badass despite some doing nothing to fit the criteria, please put it forth. But simply putting "Oh Alan Moore liked Nite-Owl and not Rorschach!!!!" up there is not an argument, that's an Appeal to Authority (A bad one at that since Alan Moore isn't exactly an expert or authority, anything. At all) and it's invalid in any logical debate.

So is there any criteria we're going by here, or is this just a page to blow unlikeable douche characters for our own personal OT Ps, because so far that's basically what it is and I reckon has been since the get-go.

At the very least can we agree that the whiny, egotistical clod who sexually assaults unconscious girls is not badass? Or is that asking too much of Evangelion fans? Can we at least downgrade him to being less badass than Raiden who, for all his faults, never masturbated onto an unconscious girl's chest? Because if that's badass I officially declare every rapist ever badass, or at least as badass as Shinji Ikari.

(Hint: they're not, and neither is he.)
06:08:38 AM Sep 22nd 2010
I'd like to give some examples of what I'm talking about, pointing out the five most obvious ones.

1—the assertion that "any character" (quantify?) who isn't badass in One Piece is considered stupid is a perfectly valid one. In a series where everyone and their sister seems able to shoot lasers out of their penis and grow extra arms with gatling guns on them at will, ANYONE who cannot fight competitively with these people IS in fact The Load. This is not opinion, it is a statement of fact. By the logic applied here if a guy has a broken back and is paralyzed from the neck down, but has a "wonderful personality" and "strong heart" he should be allowed in the Airforce. WHAT'S THAT!? Criteria for entry? Capability as a soldier? Skills! Why, you're underestimating how 'badass his wonderful soul is! Watch out, don't make Gimpy mad or he'll...have a bad back at you...

2—Raiden. This guy was and will most likely remain an almost archetypal example ofa white haired, white skinned Bishonen pretty boy. That's it. He was a samey, unoriginal nobody character in a series where almost everyone else was a psychic Native American vampire cyborg ninja with bees. My god. The idea that he's even remotely as unique or likable as, say, Snake is absurd. The fact that he later became more unique, if more angsty, and now is actually getting his own game for it is not an example of how "shallow" people are...its an admission by Kojima that he dropped the ball the first time and finally made him an interesting character in Guns of the Patriots. Not only is Raiden not badass, his measureably less badass than even the Mooks in Metal Gear Solid. The Genome Soldiers, FROGS and Mercenaries were more interesting to see than a generic Bishonen with issues.

3—Shinji Ikari came on an unconscious girl's chest. While she was unconscious. Forget about the fact he's an egotistical, self-centered wreck of a human being with absurdly overplayed "daddy issues" that most normal people would get over fairly quick (seriously my father hated me, fucking, hoo asshole) and endangered himself and others because of his idiocy and self-centered navel gazing. Forget all of that. He masturbated onto an unconscious girl, that's sexual assault. There is no other way to interpret this! Stop trying!

4—Fans liking Kamina more than Simon is not saying Simon is not a great hero. Believe me he is. As a rediculously huge fan of TTGL, I think I can say that as an official authority on the matter. That's not the point...the point is that Kamina is Simon's mentor, father figure and Obi Wan throughout the entire series. He brought them together, he started the rebellion, he inspired Simon, and without him Simon would never have even made it out of his hidey-hole to do dick all. That does not mean Simon is not badass (far from it, he saved the universe through sheer force of character for God's sake!) it means that Kamina is equally badass, and equally important. He's Obi Wan, Simon is Luke.

5—I'll admit that the Mega Man X example has some legs. X is clealy a badas and anyone who says with a straight face otherwise is clearly simply not at one with reality. No one saves the world a dozen times and lacks balls, period. However...if a character constantly complains about ongoing wars, in a series where the fanbase likes the wars and wants them to continue, it is not unexpected or unwarrented to say that the fandom will not deeply accept him. Combine this with the simple fact that Zero is a more mysterious, unique charactrer and has more development as a person than X who basically is the same guy in every game and it is easy to see that people may in fact simply like Zero more and not so much dislike X. However those who claim that X is not badass are just wrong.
04:13:36 AM Jun 6th 2011
Is this, or is it not, "Gushing about Characters the Fandom Hates but You Like"?

No, no it is not.
03:23:08 PM Jul 29th 2012
edited by St0rmrage14
Yeah, Snake being a soldier with PTSD was SOOOO ORIGINAL. If you want to bash this trope, coming in and saying that characters aren't bad ass isn't the best way to do it. You're clearly biased attack on Raiden is completely with out Merit (For instance, Kojima said that Raiden was his favorite character in 2, and he changed him in 4 solely because of fan complaint.) Raiden killed just as many people on Big Shell as Snake did in Shadow Moses. Just because he has different sets of issues than the typical for the series doesn't make him any less valid a character.
11:27:29 AM Aug 8th 2013
edited by
Assuming that I read the page correctly, this is supposed to be about the fandom or the characters in the series disliking someone because they don't live up to the level of badass they want.

People disliking Alfred from batman because, in the movies, he doesn't single-handedly beat a room of thugs into the ground every five minutes would fit.

Raiden, on the other hand, doesn't work. Raiden killed Vamp. You know, the guy who was supposed to be immortal. He also took on a room of enemies without his arms by holding his sword in his mouth. Whether he wasn't interesting when first introduced has nothing to do with his ability to be a badass.
01:00:59 PM Aug 15th 2010
"Likely because Shinji was not intended to be likable. He's a parody (or, for the faux-intellectuals, "deconstruction") of the classic Super Robot hero archetype. Said archetype is brave, strong, self-sacrificing, typically stoic and highly courageous. Shinji is a rank coward, self-centered, weak physically and mentally, and oh yeah he masturbates over the bodies of unconscious girls. It's not "ironic" that fans dislike Shinji when the entire point of the character is that you're supposed to not like him. That would be like arguing that Simon is strange because he's not a craven coward and emotional wreck like Shinji—it's not a mistake, its 'characterization."

This seemed like total, subjective Take That! to Shinji to me. I'm wondering if I should remove it.
01:09:29 PM Aug 15th 2010
It seems a bit subjective, yes, but with the "no such thing as notability" deal it's kind of a grey area between cleaning up and a "justified edit". Does anyone else agree with the post?
01:14:27 PM Aug 15th 2010
It's Natter. Nuke it.
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