History Main / WhatmeasureIsANonBadass

23rd Aug '16 4:03:36 PM merotoker
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** Anti-Miaka Fans got worse when ''Manga/FushigiYuugiGenbuKaiden'' came out and gave us [[ActionGirl Takiko]]. She's more action-oriented, actively tries to reach out to the warriors who all have their share of baggage, often suffering physical injuries to help other people and knows how to save herself out of situations. A big problem in comparing the two in terms of Badass Protagonists is the fact that Takiko lives in TheRoaringTwenties of ImperialJapan and Miaka comes from TheNineties, with ''a lot'' of cultural and socially established norms having changed since.

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** Anti-Miaka Fans got worse when ''Manga/FushigiYuugiGenbuKaiden'' came out and gave us [[ActionGirl Takiko]]. She's more action-oriented, actively tries to reach out to the warriors who all have their share of baggage, often suffering physical injuries to help other people and knows how to save herself out of situations. A big problem in comparing the two in terms of Badass Protagonists is the fact that Takiko lives in TheRoaringTwenties of ImperialJapan UsefulNotes/ImperialJapan and Miaka comes from TheNineties, with ''a lot'' of cultural and socially established norms having changed since.



** Many of Kamina's fanboys (which is about 90 percent of the people that watched the show), refuse to acknowledge Simon as the main character, simply because, according to them, he's not as badass as Kamina... despite the fact that the show made it clear that Simon far surpassed Kamina by the end of the show, and without Simon's help, Kamina wouldn't have made it as far as he did. In the [[spoiler:LotusEaterMachine, ''Kamina himself'' admits that Simon has surpassed him.]] MisaimedFandom at its finest, ladies and gentlemen.

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** Many of Kamina's fanboys (which is about 90 percent of the people that watched the show), refuse to acknowledge Simon as the main character, simply because, according to them, he's not as badass as Kamina... despite the fact that the show made it clear that Simon far surpassed Kamina by the end of the show, and without Simon's help, Kamina wouldn't have made it as far as he did. In the [[spoiler:LotusEaterMachine, ''Kamina himself'' admits that Simon has surpassed him.]] him]]. MisaimedFandom at its finest, ladies and gentlemen.



* ''Anime/PuellaMagiMadokaMagica'' : Madoka Kaname is [[TheScrappy condemned by the fanbase]] for being [[{{Wangst}} emotionally crushed]] by all that happens to her at the start. These fans focus on Madoka's justified grief at the situation without taking into account that [[spoiler: Madoka is a firmly proactive protagonist, saving people from unwittingly killing themselves at the hands of a witch, singlehandedly trying to stop Sayaka from fighting, and trying to convince Homura to team up with Sayaka for her benefit; all of this meant to establish that trying one's best to do what's right doesn't always result in a happy ending.]] The ending makes it a DefiedTrope, as she [[RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap rescues herself from the scrappy heap]] ''without'' becoming a badass. [[spoiler:She essentially saves everyone with ThePowerOfLove, by {{Rules Lawyer}}ing herself into goddessdom.]]

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* ''Anime/PuellaMagiMadokaMagica'' : Madoka Kaname is [[TheScrappy condemned by the fanbase]] for being [[{{Wangst}} emotionally crushed]] by all that happens to her at the start. These fans focus on Madoka's justified grief at the situation without taking into account that [[spoiler: Madoka is a firmly proactive protagonist, saving people from unwittingly killing themselves at the hands of a witch, singlehandedly trying to stop Sayaka from fighting, and trying to convince Homura to team up with Sayaka for her benefit; all of this meant to establish that trying one's best to do what's right doesn't always result in a happy ending.]] ending]]. The ending makes it a DefiedTrope, as she [[RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap rescues herself from the scrappy heap]] ''without'' becoming a badass. [[spoiler:She essentially saves everyone with ThePowerOfLove, by {{Rules Lawyer}}ing herself into goddessdom.]]



* A BadassNormal hero will sometimes get heat for being 'normal' and not super powered. Yes, that includes Franchise/{{Batman}} (though obviously, this is so rare it's hardly worth mentioning). As there are many superheroes to whom normal problems would be boringly easy, they need threats that will challenge them, but this leaves the badass normals useless in these situations: If they're only human, than it would be ridiculous for them to deal with the same level of threats the other does regularly. In a shared universe, the normal guy will look pathetic in comparison: Superman can deal with planets colliding, while Batman can (just barely) deal with two trains colliding by himself. While they can be compensated in team-ups by the 'normal' guy doing something more flashy (such as performing some insanely cool looking martial arts moves to fight a group of enemies) while the super does something more boring looking (like just a simple backhand to all three), usually there will be a massive power slant, resulting in team-ups being used to deal with middle ground threats at most while SupermanStaysOutOfGotham. Because of this, the BadassNormal will have a certain stigma to deal with: They'll have to really prove they're a tough badass, who can deal with the situation head on, or else they'll be regarded as pathetic. For example:

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* A BadassNormal hero will sometimes get heat for being 'normal' and not super powered. Yes, that includes Franchise/{{Batman}} (though obviously, this is so rare it's hardly worth mentioning). As there are many superheroes to whom normal problems would be boringly easy, they need threats that will challenge them, but this leaves the badass normals useless in these situations: If they're only human, than it would be ridiculous for them to deal with the same level of threats the other does regularly. In a shared universe, the normal guy will look pathetic in comparison: Superman Franchise/{{Superman}} can deal with planets colliding, while Batman can (just barely) deal with two trains colliding by himself. While they can be compensated in team-ups by the 'normal' guy doing something more flashy (such as performing some insanely cool looking martial arts moves to fight a group of enemies) while the super does something more boring looking (like just a simple backhand to all three), usually there will be a massive power slant, resulting in team-ups being used to deal with middle ground threats at most while SupermanStaysOutOfGotham. Because of this, the BadassNormal will have a certain stigma to deal with: They'll have to really prove they're a tough badass, who can deal with the situation head on, or else they'll be regarded as pathetic. For example:



* The Bat Family, Batman's partners, Robins, sidekicks, and mentees are all hit with this trope. While Batman has the same stigma, he's still seen as an incredible badass. So, his sidekicks, who unfortunately are limited in how many levels they can rise to or risk overshadowing him, tend to appear this (Dick Grayson was the poster child of DistressedDude during UsefulNotes/{{the Silver Age|OfComicBooks}}). With exception of Cassandra Cain, they're occasionally hit with this by someone, the worst being Stephanie Brown. While each member has at least one skill they excel at (Dick's leadership and acrobatics, Tim's detective skills, Babs' intelligence, Jason's homicidal violence, etc) Steph is a realistic portrayal of a Badass Normal: She's got an average intellect and reasonable training and skills in fighting and athletics, she lacks PhotographicMemory and TrainingFromHell the others possess. So, while she is as badass, if not more so, than many real life people or action heroes, she's limited in what she could reasonably achieve. To this day there's many a HateDumb that will decry her as 'weak', 'pathetic', 'stupid', and call her 'incompetent' for not having {{Charles Atlas Superpower}}s and being ThePollyanna.

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* The Bat Family, Batman's partners, Robins, sidekicks, and mentees are all hit with this trope. While Batman has the same stigma, he's still seen as an incredible badass. So, his sidekicks, who unfortunately are limited in how many levels they can rise to or risk overshadowing him, tend to appear this (Dick Grayson was the poster child of DistressedDude during UsefulNotes/{{the Silver Age|OfComicBooks}}). With the exception of [[ComicBook/BatGirl2000 Cassandra Cain, Cain]], they're occasionally hit with this by someone, the worst being Stephanie Brown. While each member has at least one skill they excel at (Dick's leadership and acrobatics, Tim's detective skills, Babs' intelligence, Jason's homicidal violence, etc) Steph is a realistic portrayal of a Badass Normal: She's got an average intellect and reasonable training and skills in fighting and athletics, she lacks PhotographicMemory and TrainingFromHell the others possess. So, while she is as badass, if not more so, than many real life people or action heroes, she's limited in what she could reasonably achieve. To this day there's many a HateDumb that will decry her as 'weak', 'pathetic', 'stupid', and call her 'incompetent' for not having {{Charles Atlas Superpower}}s and being ThePollyanna.



** Aqualad/Tempest took heat from some fans ''and'' DC editorial for having "lame" powers (similar opinions exist about his mentor, Aquaman), and for coming off weaker, less "manly", and less proactive than the other male Titans. Even after he got an upgrade in power, his role gradually diminished and he was killed off. Phil Jimenez (who wrote the Tempest mini-series) has stated that the current editorial team wasn't too fond of the character.

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** Aqualad/Tempest took heat from some fans ''and'' DC editorial for having "lame" powers (similar opinions exist about his mentor, Aquaman), ComicBook/{{Aquaman}}), and for coming off weaker, less "manly", and less proactive than the other male Titans. Even after he got an upgrade in power, his role gradually diminished and he was killed off. Phil Jimenez (who wrote the Tempest mini-series) has stated that the current editorial team wasn't too fond of the character.



** Jericho, for being too sensitive, a "wuss", not being much of an action guy, and having a flamboyant costume and weird hair in his early days. The showrunners of the animated series had stated they felt the need to try to make him look more badass, as they considered him to be pathetic in the comics.

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** Jericho, for being too sensitive, a "wuss", not being much of an action guy, and having a flamboyant costume and weird hair in his early days. The showrunners of [[WesternAnimation/TeenTitans the animated series series]] had stated they felt the need to try to make him look more badass, as they considered him to be pathetic in the comics.



* Take any of Creator/StevenSeagal's later movies; the most common complaint will be that he hardly does any real fighting anymore since he's gotten older and put on weight. Though this is perhaps what inevitably happens when you build your entire early film career on subpar movies whose central appeal is you being a total badass. The fact the he is often replaced with a double has helped this preception.

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* Take any of Creator/StevenSeagal's later movies; the most common complaint will be that he hardly does any real fighting anymore since he's gotten older and put on weight. Though this is perhaps what inevitably happens when you build your entire early film career on subpar movies whose central appeal is you being a total badass. The fact the he is often replaced with a double has helped this preception.perception.



** Because of the mystery surrounding the character and his agelessness, many fans built up Richard Alpert as the answer to the entire show, the most powerful character, and, among some fans, a literal MemeticBadass and the show's version of Chuck Norris. Fans on GameFAQs and Lostpedia even developed a joke episode dealing with the idea that he is a superhuman badass. So when the end of season 5 revealed Richard to be an ordinary person with realistic flaws and personality (as well as being an UnwittingPawn), the fandom reacted violently and Richard suddenly became unpopular.

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** Because of the mystery surrounding the character and his agelessness, many fans built up Richard Alpert as the answer to the entire show, the most powerful character, and, among some fans, a literal MemeticBadass and the show's version of Chuck Norris. Fans on GameFAQs Website/GameFAQs and Lostpedia even developed a joke episode dealing with the idea that he is a superhuman badass. So when the end of season 5 revealed Richard to be an ordinary person with realistic flaws and personality (as well as being an UnwittingPawn), the fandom reacted violently and Richard suddenly became unpopular.



* ''Series/{{Merlin}}'' : On the surface, Guinevere is essentially portrayed as a ShrinkingViolet, a stark contrast to Morgana as a SpiritedYoungLady. Morgana gets to do lots of cool things: [[ActionGirl sword-fight]], telekenetically throw people through the air and [[TyrantTakesTheHelm stand up to King Uther]]. However, this is a ''huge'' simplification of each woman's characterization and CharacterArc: namely that Morgana's [[SlowlySlippingIntoEvil fall into evil]] was marked by her ItsAllAboutMe attitude in which she ranks her own grievances and pain against the needs of others and begins a RoaringRampageOfRevenge against not just Uther, but ''everyone'', including innocent people. In contrast, Guinevere (who is also deeply wronged by Uther when he has her innocent father executed) rises above her inner turmoil and explicitly refuses wallow in hate. Many fans seem to have ''completely'' missed the juxtapositioning of Guinevere's declaration that she would never seek vengeance against Uther because: "that would make me just like him" with the observations by ''several'' characters that Morgana is now no different from Uther. It also fails to take into account the fact that Guinevere's attempts at proactivity have a far higher success rate [[note]] (retrieving the morteus flower from the dungeon, arguing on behalf of the women in Ealdor for their right to defend their homes, discovering a vital clue that allows her and Merlin to outwit the Witchfinder, convincing the council to open the gates of Camelot and allow the refugees to seek shelter in the city, escaping Helios's men by submerging herself in the river)[[/note]]. Though Guinevere has played the DamselInDistress a few times, Morgana has been in similar situations just as often ([[DistressedDude as have all the male characters]]) and is extremely WeakWilled given the consistency [[HypnotizeThePrincess with which she is placed under enchantments]]. Guinevere, on the other hand, has the ''unprecedented'' move of removing an object of enchantment from her body of her own free will (and thus breaking the spell she was under).
** The reactions to ''Lancelot and Guinevere'' are a perfect example of this trope. Most of the complaints about the episode state it as Guinevere's biggest DamselInDistress moment, and that she needed three attempts by Morgana, Lancelot, and then Arthur and Merlin to rescue her due to her extreme incompetence. 1) It was Guinevere's YouShallNotPass moment that saved Morgana, not the other way around, 2) In Lancelot's rescue, we never see her get captured, so we don't know if she tripped or ran into a group of bandits, and 3) All of that would have been for nothing had Gwen not kept up a Morgana impression throughout the duration of her imprisonment, which kept her alive until help could come. Uther even mentions that it would take a small army to beat the number of bandits in the fortress she was held in, so unless you're expecting her to spontaneously turn into [[{{Series/Firefly}} River Tam]], there was no way she could have escaped without help.

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* ''Series/{{Merlin}}'' : ''Series/{{Merlin|2008}}'': On the surface, Guinevere is essentially portrayed as a ShrinkingViolet, a stark contrast to Morgana as a SpiritedYoungLady. Morgana gets to do lots of cool things: [[ActionGirl sword-fight]], telekenetically telekinetically throw people through the air and [[TyrantTakesTheHelm stand up to King Uther]]. However, this is a ''huge'' simplification of each woman's characterization and CharacterArc: namely that Morgana's [[SlowlySlippingIntoEvil fall into evil]] was marked by her ItsAllAboutMe attitude in which she ranks her own grievances and pain against the needs of others and begins a RoaringRampageOfRevenge against not just Uther, but ''everyone'', including innocent people. In contrast, Guinevere (who is also deeply wronged by Uther when he has her innocent father executed) rises above her inner turmoil and explicitly refuses to wallow in hate. Many fans seem to have ''completely'' missed the juxtapositioning of Guinevere's declaration that she would never seek vengeance against Uther because: "that would make me just like him" with the observations by ''several'' characters that Morgana is now no different from Uther. It also fails to take into account the fact that Guinevere's attempts at proactivity have a far higher success rate [[note]] (retrieving the morteus flower from the dungeon, arguing on behalf of the women in Ealdor for their right to defend their homes, discovering a vital clue that allows her and Merlin to outwit the Witchfinder, convincing the council to open the gates of Camelot and allow the refugees to seek shelter in the city, escaping Helios's men by submerging herself in the river)[[/note]]. Though Guinevere has played the DamselInDistress a few times, Morgana has been in similar situations just as often ([[DistressedDude as have all the male characters]]) and is extremely WeakWilled given the consistency [[HypnotizeThePrincess with which she is placed under enchantments]]. Guinevere, on the other hand, has the ''unprecedented'' move of removing an object of enchantment from her body of her own free will (and thus breaking the spell she was under).
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under).\\
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The reactions to ''Lancelot "[[Recap/MerlinS02E04LancelotAndGuinevere Lancelot and Guinevere'' Guinevere]]" are a perfect example of this trope. Most of the complaints about the episode state it as Guinevere's biggest DamselInDistress moment, and that she needed three attempts by Morgana, Lancelot, and then Arthur and Merlin to rescue her due to her extreme incompetence. 1) It was Guinevere's YouShallNotPass moment that saved Morgana, not the other way around, 2) In Lancelot's rescue, we never see her get captured, so we don't know if she tripped or ran into a group of bandits, and 3) All of that would have been for nothing had Gwen not kept up a Morgana impression throughout the duration of her imprisonment, which kept her alive until help could come. Uther even mentions that it would take a small army to beat the number of bandits in the fortress she was held in, so unless you're expecting her to spontaneously turn into [[{{Series/Firefly}} River Tam]], there was no way she could have escaped without help.



* Out-of-universe example: After {{Lita}} and TrishStratus kick-started the {{WWE}} Divas' division as we know it today, many of the other Divas were disdained for not quite measuring up to the in-ring standards of the first two, even if they trained at a level roughly equal to Lita and Trish - and even though when most of these Divas (''including'' Lita and Trish) started their careers in the late 1990s, [[FairForItsDay many fans considered it impressive when women wrestled]] ''[[FairForItsDay at all]]''.

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* Out-of-universe example: After {{Lita}} Wrestling/{{Lita}} and TrishStratus Wrestling/TrishStratus kick-started the {{WWE}} Wrestling/{{WWE}} Divas' division as we know it today, many of the other Divas were disdained for not quite measuring up to the in-ring standards of the first two, even if they trained at a level roughly equal to Lita and Trish - and even though when most of these Divas (''including'' Lita and Trish) started their careers in the late 1990s, [[FairForItsDay many fans considered it impressive when women wrestled]] ''[[FairForItsDay at all]]''.



* ''Franchise/KingdomHearts'': Sora, The Protagonist is goofy, naive, lacks angst ''and'' ambition, and is incredibly gentle and empathic. His attitude screams the opposite of badassery. He is also quite possibly the second most powerful individual in the universe, beaten out by a reality warping PhysicalGod. Without training or preparation, he has accomplished more than three of his (formally trained) predecessors put together. His combat prowess is amplified in ''VideoGame/KingdomHearts2'''s ActionCommands, but this serves only to highlight the dissonance.

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* ''Franchise/KingdomHearts'': Sora, The Protagonist [[TheProtagonist Sora]] is goofy, naive, lacks angst ''and'' ambition, and is incredibly gentle and empathic. His attitude screams the opposite of badassery. He is also quite possibly the second most powerful individual in the universe, beaten out by a reality warping PhysicalGod. Without training or preparation, he has accomplished more than three of his (formally trained) predecessors put together. His combat prowess is amplified in ''VideoGame/KingdomHearts2'''s ''VideoGame/KingdomHeartsII'''s ActionCommands, but this serves only to highlight the dissonance.



** ActionGirl and {{Proud Warrior Race G|uy}}irl Lyndis aka Lyn is used as the yardstick by which a lot of FE females are measured. I.e., lead female Eirika from ''VideoGame/FireEmblemTheSacredStones'' is often compared disfavorably to Lyn (being called "a step backward" in feminism due to being girlier), and "weaker" females like Ninian, Florina or Nino are hotly bashed for "not being strong women" like Lyn is.

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** ActionGirl and {{Proud Warrior Race G|uy}}irl Lyndis aka Lyn is used as the yardstick by which a lot of FE females are measured. I.e., lead female Eirika from ''VideoGame/FireEmblemTheSacredStones'' is often compared disfavorably unfavorably to Lyn (being called "a step backward" in feminism due to being girlier), and "weaker" females like Ninian, Florina or Nino are hotly bashed for "not being strong women" like Lyn is.



** ''VideoGame/FireEmblemAwakening'': Cower before the sheer hatred poor [[SubmissiveBadass Sumia]] gets for this. Never mind the fact that she single-handedly saved Chrom's life ''in her first battle'', that she once [[GetAHoldOfYourselfMan hits him to get him out of his funk]] ''and'' that [[LadyOfWar she never backs off the battlefield]] [[ActionMom even if she's married with kids]], the FanDumb still considers her "weak" and [[RealWomenDontWearDresses "anti-feminist"]] for ''daring'' to [[ThroughHisStomach bake Chrom pies and do his laundry during their supports.]] Most of this hate comes from fans of other Chrom pairings who use this trope in an attempt to "justify" their DieForOurShip towards here. (Much like Ninian in FE 7) It helps this preception that two of Chrom's other potential love interests, Sully and the Female Avatar, are TheLadette and a BadassBookworm respectively (and Sully is [[GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff much more popular in America than in Japan]]); this made both poor girls (very powerful ''and'' likeable characters in their own rights, and good friends with Sumia to boot) the ''perfect'' vessels for the sexist fangirls who think "feminine bad, tomboyish good", [[{{hypocrite}} often while reducing Sully and Female Avatar's worth as women to either of them getting Chrom's cock for herself]].

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** ''VideoGame/FireEmblemAwakening'': Cower before the sheer hatred poor [[SubmissiveBadass Sumia]] gets for this. Never mind the fact that she single-handedly saved Chrom's life ''in her first battle'', that she once [[GetAHoldOfYourselfMan hits him to get him out of his funk]] ''and'' that [[LadyOfWar she never backs off the battlefield]] [[ActionMom even if she's married with kids]], the FanDumb still considers her "weak" and [[RealWomenDontWearDresses "anti-feminist"]] for ''daring'' to [[ThroughHisStomach bake Chrom pies and do his laundry during their supports.]] Most of this hate comes from fans of other Chrom pairings who use this trope in an attempt to "justify" their DieForOurShip towards here. (Much like Ninian in FE 7) It helps this preception perception that two of Chrom's other potential love interests, Sully and the Female Avatar, are TheLadette and a BadassBookworm respectively (and Sully is [[GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff much more popular in America than in Japan]]); this made both poor girls (very powerful ''and'' likeable characters in their own rights, and good friends with Sumia to boot) the ''perfect'' vessels for the sexist fangirls who think "feminine bad, tomboyish good", [[{{hypocrite}} often while reducing Sully and Female Avatar's worth as women to either of them getting Chrom's cock for herself]].



* ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid2SonsOfLiberty'''s Raiden got a lot of flak from fanboys, mostly for being a ReplacementScrappy for Solid Snake, but attributed to him being a "weak, [[{{Bishonen}} overly-feminine]] character" (despite the fact that he fought well, ''taking down several Metal Gears, killing the BigBad'', and did far better than most people could have done in his [[GambitPileup profoundly shitty situation]], leaving with renewed purpose, the [[WellDoneSonGuy respect of his mentor]], a renewed relationship with the woman he loved, and with the child of a castmate still alive). ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid4GunsOfThePatriots'' reinvented him to be a cyborg ninja, and these days, he's a lot more popular - even though his ninja self spent half of the game dying slowly of kidney failure and whining about his awful situation. To be fair, he's ''still'' a powerful fighter who has his fair share of BigDamnHeroes moments, but the primary difference between his ''[[VideoGame/MetalGearSolid2 MGS2]]'' and ''[[VideoGame/MetalGearSolid4 MGS4]]'' personas seems to be {{Angst}} more than anything else. It just goes to show how shallow this trope (and/or people's standards of Badassery) is; Raiden was judged pathetic because of his [[PrettyBoy appearance]] (his actions did not matter).
* ''Videogame/MegaManX'': The title character of the series gets this a lot. His viewpoint (except for in the seventh game) is that he'd rather not fight, but does because he feels he has to. Because he wishes he didn't have to go to war, he's usually portrayed as a pansy and/or gay (though the latter has more to do with the HoYay between him and Zero). Zero, by contrast, is a {{Badass}} killbot with a laser sword, who enjoys EpicBattleBoredom, and is thus ''much'' more popular.
** Fans also like to completely ignore the fact that once X has all his upgrades and armors, he's an unstoppable OneManArmy who is much more powerful than Zero. Not only that but both he and Zero have climatically fought each other ''to a tie'', Zero outright says X is the better Hunter, and a bad guy [[ColonyDrop killed millions]] so X would fight him all-out (and had no interest in fighting Zero). But no, still a pansy because he realizes that after 8 wars, more fighting doesn't solve anything. It's truly amazing how many people can dismiss him technically beating Zero in X5, while surrounded by a virus that weakens him and renders Zero {{Nigh Invulnerab|ility}}le, and only succumbs to its effects ''after'' beating the death machine into the ground.

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* ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid2SonsOfLiberty'''s Raiden got a lot of flak from fanboys, mostly for being a ReplacementScrappy for Solid Snake, but attributed to him being a "weak, [[{{Bishonen}} overly-feminine]] character" (despite the fact that he fought well, ''taking down several Metal Gears, killing the BigBad'', and did far better than most people could have done in his [[GambitPileup profoundly shitty situation]], leaving with renewed purpose, the [[WellDoneSonGuy respect of his mentor]], a renewed relationship with the woman he loved, and with the child of a castmate still alive). ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid4GunsOfThePatriots'' reinvented him to be a cyborg ninja, and these days, he's a lot more popular - even though his ninja self spent half of the game dying slowly of kidney failure and whining about his awful situation. To be fair, he's ''still'' a powerful fighter who has his fair share of BigDamnHeroes moments, but the primary difference between his ''[[VideoGame/MetalGearSolid2 MGS2]]'' ''[=MGS2=]'' and ''[[VideoGame/MetalGearSolid4 MGS4]]'' ''[=MGS4=]'' personas seems to be {{Angst}} more than anything else. It just goes to show how shallow this trope (and/or people's standards of Badassery) is; Raiden was judged pathetic because of his [[PrettyBoy appearance]] (his actions did not matter).
* ''Videogame/MegaManX'': The title character of the series gets this a lot. His viewpoint (except for in [[Videogame/MegaManX7 the seventh game) game]]) is that he'd rather not fight, but does because he feels he has to. Because he wishes he didn't have to go to war, he's usually portrayed as a pansy and/or gay (though the latter has more to do with the HoYay between him and Zero). Zero, by contrast, is a {{Badass}} killbot with a laser sword, who enjoys EpicBattleBoredom, and is thus ''much'' more popular.
**
popular. Fans also like to completely ignore the fact that once X has all his upgrades and armors, he's an unstoppable OneManArmy who is much more powerful than Zero. Not only that but both he and Zero have climatically fought each other ''to a tie'', Zero outright says X is the better Hunter, and a bad guy [[ColonyDrop killed millions]] so X would fight him all-out (and had no interest in fighting Zero). But no, still a pansy because he realizes that after 8 wars, more fighting doesn't solve anything. It's truly amazing how many people can dismiss him technically beating Zero in X5, while surrounded by a virus that weakens him and renders Zero {{Nigh Invulnerab|ility}}le, and only succumbs to its effects ''after'' beating the death machine into the ground.



* ''VideoGame/TheKingOfFighters'': This one of the reasons why Yuki was hated. Since she was a mix of BarrierMaiden and OrdinaryHighSchoolStudent who didn't fight, fans of other female characters thought she was stupid, useless, weak, and [[DieForOurShip stole Kyo from "more deserving" strong females]] (and/or [[HoYay other males]]).
* Kyrie from ''VideoGame/SandsOfDestruction'' isn't the most manly of men: he ApologizesALot, he's a ReluctantWarrior, he follows the whims of a very destructive girl because he fell in LoveAtFirstSight but never tries to get in her panties, favoring verbal confessions of love to anything physical. If you flipped the genders of the leads, you'd have a very typical story about a gentle soul whose LoveRedeems, but with the male as the patient LoveMartyr, fans get annoyed. This is despite the fact that, unlike the anime, Kyrie ''is'' a legitimate fighter here and is capable with his knives; he would just really rather not use them.
* It seems that in ''VideoGame/BlazBlue'', the only way you could attain fan interest if that if you have Godlike, [[GameBreaker reality-breaking]] powers or can stand up to them, or for the fans of 'good morality', can go toe-to-toe with the two broken villains: Terumi and Relius (and always refusing them). These are probably why even Platinum the Trinity, who could be considered TheScrappy, might be escaping it a bit, because she's the host of Trinity Glassfile, one of the Six Heroes. This is why back in the old days, Jin Kisaragi was widely hated in favor of his more {{Badass}} and more 'morally straight' Hakumen (in spite of Hakumen being a KnightTemplar, apparently being a {{Badass}} means that everything you do is more righteous). This is also why fans enjoy morally questionable characters like Rachel and Kokonoe because they oppose Terumi and are some of the most powerful individuals in the verse. This is also why characters like Litchi and Arakune are largely ignored or derided even with their tragic story ongoing... solely because the former is OvershadowedByAwesome (in both muscles and brains, by Kokonoe) and ''dares'' become an UnwittingPawn for those villains and mopes around her personal problem instead of shoving them off and focusing on awesome things like world-saving, and the other one... seems to never get past of being a CannonFodder type {{Mook}} in the eyes of many. This is also why Noel is always considered a whiny crybaby, because of her acts in the earlier games, and only after Chronophantasma that she gains confidence that fans started looking up to her more, though not everyone, and this is also why Makoto is praised like hell, because if anything, she tanks up everything Terumi threw to her, continues being a 'good guy' and wrecked his plans (even by accident) in her CS EX story. This whole thing is more prevalent in America, because [[AmericanKirbyIsHardcore badassery is worshipped like a God there.]]

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* ''VideoGame/TheKingOfFighters'': This one One of the reasons why Yuki was hated. Since she was a mix of BarrierMaiden and OrdinaryHighSchoolStudent who didn't fight, fans of other female characters thought she was stupid, useless, weak, and [[DieForOurShip stole Kyo from "more deserving" strong females]] (and/or [[HoYay other males]]).
* Kyrie from ''VideoGame/SandsOfDestruction'' isn't the most manly of men: he ApologizesALot, ApologisesALot, he's a ReluctantWarrior, he follows the whims of a very destructive girl because he fell in LoveAtFirstSight but never tries to get in her panties, favoring verbal confessions of love to anything physical. If you flipped the genders of the leads, you'd have a very typical story about a gentle soul whose LoveRedeems, but with the male as the patient LoveMartyr, fans get annoyed. This is despite the fact that, unlike the anime, Kyrie ''is'' a legitimate fighter here and is capable with his knives; he would just really rather not use them.
* It seems that in ''VideoGame/BlazBlue'', the only way you could attain fan interest if that if you have Godlike, [[GameBreaker reality-breaking]] powers or can stand up to them, or for the fans of 'good morality', can go toe-to-toe with the two broken villains: Terumi and Relius (and always refusing them). These are probably why even Platinum the Trinity, who could be considered TheScrappy, might be escaping it a bit, because she's the host of Trinity Glassfile, one of the Six Heroes. This is why back in the old days, Jin Kisaragi was widely hated in favor of his more {{Badass}} and more 'morally straight' Hakumen (in spite of Hakumen being a KnightTemplar, apparently being a {{Badass}} means that everything you do is more righteous). This is also why fans enjoy morally questionable characters like Rachel and Kokonoe because they oppose Terumi and are some of the most powerful individuals in the verse. This is also why characters like Litchi and Arakune are largely ignored or derided even with their tragic story ongoing... solely because the former is OvershadowedByAwesome (in both muscles and brains, by Kokonoe) and ''dares'' become an UnwittingPawn for those villains and mopes around her personal problem instead of shoving them off and focusing on awesome things like world-saving, and the other one... seems to never get past of being a CannonFodder type {{Mook}} {{Mook|s}} in the eyes of many. This is also why Noel is always considered a whiny crybaby, because of her acts in the earlier games, and only after Chronophantasma that she gains confidence that fans started looking up to her more, though not everyone, and this is also why Makoto is praised like hell, because if anything, she tanks up everything Terumi threw to her, continues being a 'good guy' and wrecked his plans (even by accident) in her CS EX story. This whole thing is more prevalent in America, because [[AmericanKirbyIsHardcore badassery is worshipped like a God there.]]



* An in-universe example: in Season 10 of ''Machinima/RedVsBlue'', Church claims that Washington has gone from being a {{Badass}} Freelancer who could fight toe-to-toe with Tex to [[spoiler:Carolina]]'s whipping boy - yet he is still a skilled fighter and has in fact [[spoiler:turned the Blues into a much more effective fighting force]]. The BadassDecay is relative when compared to [[spoiler:[[BrokenAce Carolina]]]]. Then it gets completely revoked when he [[spoiler:puts a gun to Carolina's head when she threatens Tucker and shoots her an IronicEcho before walking out on her.]]

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* An in-universe example: in Season 10 of ''Machinima/RedVsBlue'', Church claims that Washington has gone from being a {{Badass}} Freelancer who could fight toe-to-toe with Tex to [[spoiler:Carolina]]'s whipping boy - yet he is still a skilled fighter and has in fact [[spoiler:turned the Blues into a much more effective fighting force]]. The BadassDecay is relative when compared to [[spoiler:[[BrokenAce Carolina]]]]. Then it gets completely revoked when he [[spoiler:puts a gun to Carolina's head when she threatens Tucker and shoots her an IronicEcho before walking out on her.]]her]].



* ''WebVideo/RedLetterMedia'': PlayedForLaughs InUniverse. In "Mr. Plinkett Reacts to the ''Franchise/StarWars: Film/TheForceAwakens'' Trailer", Mr. Plinkett makes fun of [[Characters/StarWarsImperialCourt Emperor Palpatine]] for [[UnderestimatingBadassery not being badass enough]]. At least by today's standards, mainly because [[BadassGrandpa he doesn't look the part]].

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* ''WebVideo/RedLetterMedia'': PlayedForLaughs InUniverse. In "Mr. Plinkett Reacts to the ''Franchise/StarWars: Film/TheForceAwakens'' Trailer", Mr. Plinkett makes fun of [[Characters/StarWarsImperialCourt [[Characters/StarWarsEmperorPalpatine Emperor Palpatine]] for [[UnderestimatingBadassery not being badass enough]]. At least by today's standards, mainly because [[BadassGrandpa he doesn't look the part]].



*** The trope was lampshaded in series. Korra at first assumed that Asami was a prissy RichBitch only into shopping and makeovers, and only started treating her with respect when she learned she was a BikerBabe. Korra was not supposed to be seen as being in the right: it was established that she had [[NoSocialSkills a chronic lack of social skills]] due to [[SkilledButNaive her sheltered upbringing]], that she was acting very rude towards the SpoiledSweet girl who sponsored her and her team, and she also made lots of assumptions ''solely'' based on Asami's looks and her wealthy background without bothering to dig deeper. [[CharacterDevelopment She later took these assumptions back]], aknowledging that having girlier interests doesn't automatically equal to being a priss.

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*** The trope was lampshaded in series. Korra at first assumed that Asami was a prissy RichBitch only into shopping and makeovers, and only started treating her with respect when she learned she was a BikerBabe. Korra was not supposed to be seen as being in the right: it was established that she had [[NoSocialSkills a chronic lack of social skills]] due to [[SkilledButNaive her sheltered upbringing]], that she was acting very rude towards the SpoiledSweet girl who sponsored her and her team, and she also made lots of assumptions ''solely'' based on Asami's looks and her wealthy background without bothering to dig deeper. [[CharacterDevelopment She later took these assumptions back]], aknowledging acknowledging that having girlier interests doesn't automatically equal to being a priss.



* ''WesternAnimation/ThunderCats2011'': Lion-O gets this treatment both in and out of universe. His more pacifistic and merciful attitude is dismissed and mocked by his own race for not adhering to their warrior culture values. On the fandom side, many fans have expressed a disliking of Lion-O for losing a lot of the battles he gets into, especially in contrast to his brother Tygra who beats him every time they fight. When Lion-O does overcome his enemies, it is usually done through cunning or seen as being done too easily or without any real skill.
** What's ironic is that a major theme of the series is showing how [[DeconstructedTrope someone doesn't need to be badass to be heroic]], nor do they even need to be a good fighter to be badass, and how ultimately ruling through strength instead of kindness causes more problems than it solves. In fact, it could be said that the series subtly deconstructs this trope and that many fans miss this point. Lion-O's real victories don't come from simply defeating Mumm-Ra, but through his ability to unite the races of Third Earth, some of whom have hated each other for centuries.

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* ''WesternAnimation/ThunderCats2011'': Lion-O gets this treatment both in and out of universe. His more pacifistic and merciful attitude is dismissed and mocked by his own race for not adhering to their warrior culture values. On the fandom side, many fans have expressed a disliking of Lion-O for losing a lot of the battles he gets into, especially in contrast to his brother Tygra who beats him every time they fight. When Lion-O does overcome his enemies, it is usually done through cunning or seen as being done too easily or without any real skill. \n** What's ironic is that a major theme of the series is showing how [[DeconstructedTrope someone doesn't need to be badass to be heroic]], nor do they even need to be a good fighter to be badass, and how ultimately ruling through strength instead of kindness causes more problems than it solves. In fact, it could be said that the series subtly deconstructs this trope and that many fans miss this point. Lion-O's real victories don't come from simply defeating Mumm-Ra, but through his ability to unite the races of Third Earth, some of whom have hated each other for centuries.



* UsefulNotes/JimmyCarter has frequently faced ridicule for being "soft" or "wimpy", despite having served as a submariner in the early years of the Cold War. He has been the only modern US president who didn't lead the country into any major armed conflicts (although that may be due to the backlash against the Vietnam War).
* Germany after World War I was especially bitter that their surrender was done when none of their ground was lost and had to give up because of an economic asphyxiation which is kind of a Fabian strategy. The Nazis even used the November Criminals approach to have the veteran sides with them against the cowards who stabbed them in the back by not contributing to the war effort despite that it was clear the war was lost.

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* UsefulNotes/JimmyCarter has frequently faced ridicule for being "soft" or "wimpy", despite having served as a submariner in the early years of the Cold War.UsefulNotes/ColdWar. He has been the only modern US president who didn't lead the country into any major armed conflicts (although that may be due to the backlash against the Vietnam War).
* Germany after World War I UsefulNotes/WorldWarI was especially bitter that their surrender was done when none of their ground was lost and had to give up because of an economic asphyxiation which is kind of a Fabian strategy. The Nazis even used the November Criminals approach to have the veteran sides with them against the cowards who stabbed them in the back by not contributing to the war effort despite that it was clear the war was lost.
22nd Aug '16 7:00:58 PM SaraJaye
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** ActionGirl and {{Proud Warrior Race G|uy}}irl Lyndis aka Lyn is used as the yardstick by which a lot of FE females are measured. I.e., lead female Eirika from ''VideoGame/FireEmblemTheSacredStones'' is often compared disfavorably to Lyn, and "weaker" females like Ninian, Florina or Nino are hotly bashed for "not being strong women" like Lyn is.

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** ActionGirl and {{Proud Warrior Race G|uy}}irl Lyndis aka Lyn is used as the yardstick by which a lot of FE females are measured. I.e., lead female Eirika from ''VideoGame/FireEmblemTheSacredStones'' is often compared disfavorably to Lyn, Lyn (being called "a step backward" in feminism due to being girlier), and "weaker" females like Ninian, Florina or Nino are hotly bashed for "not being strong women" like Lyn is.


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** The Avatar in ''VideoGame/FireEmblemFates'' gets a lot of this for being a gentle, naive soul who would rather talk things out and hear all sides of the story, and especially during the ''Conquest'' path for having doubts and not adjusting quickly enough to the darker situation they find themselves in midway through the plot. This, despite them eventually being the one to bring both sides together and put an end to the GreaterScopeVillain for good by the end of the third path, ''and'' doing it through more or less diplomatic means.
22nd Aug '16 3:23:19 AM ASplashingKoi
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** All of this is HilariousInHindsight, since canonically they both dumped Mako and ended up with ''each other''.
21st Aug '16 4:27:29 AM ImpudentInfidel
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** T*here's the passive-aggressive and insidious war between Korra fans and Asami fans, in which the trope is thrown back and forth to make one girl look better than the other. [[FanDumb Fandom truly is unpleasable.]]

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** T*here's There's the passive-aggressive and insidious war between Korra fans and Asami fans, in which the trope is thrown back and forth to make one girl look better than the other. [[FanDumb Fandom truly is unpleasable.]] ]]
** All of this is HilariousInHindsight, since canonically they both dumped Mako and ended up with ''each other''.
21st Aug '16 4:17:54 AM ImpudentInfidel
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*** It really doesn't help that elves in all media have a tendency to be ''infuriatingly'' arrogant. There's a reason ScrewYouElves is it's own trope.
18th Aug '16 8:20:34 PM PaulA
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* Literature/VorkosiganSaga: In-universe near the end of ''Barrayar'', Cordelia is furious when she realizes that she's respected for ordering a man's head cut off, when other women who endured much more are dismissed.

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* Literature/VorkosiganSaga: In-universe near the end of ''Barrayar'', ''Literature/{{Barrayar}}'', Cordelia is furious when she realizes that she's respected for ordering a man's head cut off, when other women who endured much more are dismissed.
10th Aug '16 5:11:09 PM Anddrix
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** Natalie White was considered this on ''Series/{{Survivor}} Samoa'', particularly by her aggressive competitors who were with her in the last tribal council. Then jury-member Erik stands up and delivers a speech in which he points out that since she's still in the game, she must be doing ''something'' right, and furthermore, did it in a way that didn't sacrifice her integrity. Meanwhile, Mick claimed to deserve votes (Natalie didn't), while Russell Hantz just sociopathically bullied his way through the game and finished by boasting "These two suck - Aren't I awesome?" to the jury. This speech may well have contributed to her 7-2-0 win. Much of a BaseBreaker as it was, compared to the ''following'' season, this would be ''nothing.''
** Sandra Diaz-Twine in ''Heroes vs. Villains'' had this by the BaseBreaker fans as well as Russell Hantz himself. Russell claims that Sandra being able to win ''twice'' is somehow proof that the game's rules are flawed, because she would be ''terrible'' at physical challenges and have ''zero'' personal immunities under her belt, yet was good enough with people to know what was up, and was able to play the lesser of three evils. ("I hate Russell, too.") Meanwhile, Parvati already had a pretty loyal fan base and played a game more people approved of, as opposed to Sandra who [[XanatosSpeedChess went with the flow]]. Mario Lanza (a foremost columnist on Survivor) pointed on his [[http://funny115.com/v2/2.htm "The Fall of Russell Hantz entry]] on his The Funny 115 that she and Russell taunted the heroes with J.T.'s letter. Some Sandra supporters even pointed out that Sandra ''had'' more allies in the jury (including the entire Heroes tribe) and Russell should have considered that -- Parvati ''did'' realize this and [[CassandraTruth tried to get Russell to see this too]], but he kept on insisting that Sandra had no chance of winning... just like he insisted that Natalie had no chance of winning in ''Samoa''. Cue the HumiliationConga.

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** Natalie White was considered this on ''Series/{{Survivor}} Samoa'', particularly by her aggressive competitors who were with her in the last tribal council. Then jury-member Erik stands up and delivers a speech in which he points out that since she's still in the game, she must be doing ''something'' right, and furthermore, did it in a way that didn't sacrifice her integrity. Meanwhile, Mick claimed to deserve votes (Natalie didn't), while Russell Hantz just sociopathically bullied his way through the game and finished by boasting "These two suck - Aren't I awesome?" to the jury. This speech may well have contributed to her 7-2-0 win. Much of a BaseBreaker as it was, compared to the ''following'' season, this would be ''nothing.''\n
** Sandra Diaz-Twine in ''Heroes vs. Villains'' had this by the BaseBreaker fans as well as Russell Hantz himself. Russell claims that Sandra being able to win ''twice'' is somehow proof that the game's rules are flawed, because she would be ''terrible'' at physical challenges and have ''zero'' personal immunities under her belt, yet was good enough with people to know what was up, and was able to play the lesser of three evils. ("I hate Russell, too.") Meanwhile, Parvati already had a pretty loyal fan base and played a game more people approved of, as opposed to Sandra who [[XanatosSpeedChess went with the flow]]. Mario Lanza (a foremost columnist on Survivor) pointed on his [[http://funny115.com/v2/2.htm "The Fall of Russell Hantz entry]] on his The Funny 115 that she and Russell taunted the heroes with J.T.'s letter. Some Sandra supporters even pointed out that Sandra ''had'' more allies in the jury (including the entire Heroes tribe) and Russell should have considered that -- Parvati ''did'' realize this and [[CassandraTruth tried to get Russell to see this too]], but he kept on insisting that Sandra had no chance of winning... just like he insisted that Natalie had no chance of winning in ''Samoa''. Cue the HumiliationConga.
25th Jul '16 8:09:58 PM SeekerSS
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* Shinji Ikari from ''Anime/NeonGenesisEvangelion'' has many moments of angst, cowardice, selfishness, and reluctance and outright refusal to fight, but also has some moments of heroism, bravery and awesome feats. But according to some people he is ''[[NeverLiveItDown always]]'' the former and the latter are anomalies. (Or, in the instance of ''[[Fanfic/ShinjiAndWarhammer40K some]]'' ''[[Fanfic/ThousandShinji famous]]'' ''[[FanFic/NobodyDies pieces]]'' of fanfiction, [[PossessionSue have him take several thousand levels of badass]].)

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* Shinji Ikari from ''Anime/NeonGenesisEvangelion'' has many moments of angst, cowardice, selfishness, and reluctance and outright refusal to fight, but also has some moments of heroism, bravery and awesome feats. But according to some people he is ''[[NeverLiveItDown always]]'' the former and the latter are anomalies. (Or, in the instance of ''[[Fanfic/ShinjiAndWarhammer40K some]]'' ''[[Fanfic/ThousandShinji famous]]'' ''[[FanFic/NobodyDies pieces]]'' of fanfiction, [[PossessionSue [[AdaptationalBadass have him take several thousand levels of badass]].)
19th Jul '16 7:38:37 AM Prometheus117
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** Also, Sakura in the VN. She is a DamselInDistress, and in her route she doesn't kick ass like Saber or Rin, but that doesn't mean it's her fault that she's horrifyingly abused by the Matou family, [[spoiler: as well as raped constantly by her stepbrother Shinji]]. And yet fans continue to bash her, implying it's her own fault that she's an abuse [[spoiler: and rape]] victim!

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** Also, Sakura in the VN. She is a DamselInDistress, and in her route she doesn't kick ass [[spoiler:at least not when she's being the ApocalypseMaiden trying to destroy the world]] like Saber or Rin, but that doesn't mean it's her fault that she's horrifyingly abused by the Matou family, [[spoiler: as well as raped constantly by her stepbrother Shinji]]. And yet fans continue to bash her, implying it's her own fault that she's an abuse [[spoiler: and rape]] victim!
9th Jul '16 2:48:23 PM nombretomado
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* ''Franchise/{{Bionicle}}'': Toa Vakama, the supposed leader of the Toa Metru has built up an unrelenting hate-base for his {{Wangst}}y portrayal in the second movie, where even his own fellow Toa pushed him around. This, despite that he defeated the BigBad all by himself (through trickery) and that his depiction in the comics and novels (which were written by the "official" writer, not the hired movie-writers) made him out to be far more competent and far less emo. One of the main reasons for this hate is that the previous Fire Toa, Tahu, was a ''very'' badass, battle-hungry hothead. Vakama TookALevelInBadass in the third movie, but by then, [[NeverLiveItDown the fandom's opinion had already been settled]].

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* ''Franchise/{{Bionicle}}'': ''Toys/{{Bionicle}}'': Toa Vakama, the supposed leader of the Toa Metru has built up an unrelenting hate-base for his {{Wangst}}y portrayal in the second movie, where even his own fellow Toa pushed him around. This, despite that he defeated the BigBad all by himself (through trickery) and that his depiction in the comics and novels (which were written by the "official" writer, not the hired movie-writers) made him out to be far more competent and far less emo. One of the main reasons for this hate is that the previous Fire Toa, Tahu, was a ''very'' badass, battle-hungry hothead. Vakama TookALevelInBadass in the third movie, but by then, [[NeverLiveItDown the fandom's opinion had already been settled]].
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