Literature Carmilla Discussion

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LordGro Since: May, 2010

Sep 24th 2022 at 3:09:50 PM •••

Re: This example for Aristocrats Are Evil:

Downplayed with Laura's father and his associates. They aren't outright villainous, nor are they aristocrats themselves, but while they're nominally sympathetic to the "illness" sweeping through the local peasantry, they aren't actually concerned about it until Carmilla's predations start showing their effects on the daughters of landed men.

The edit reason that went along with the addition justfies the example as follows:

The trope doesn't solely concern literal aristocracy, just upper classes in general, and the fact that Carmilla gets away with her spree until it affects the daughters of people with social standing is a very deliberate thematic choice.

Just as I said earlier, I maintain that the example is invalid for the following reasons:

Aristocrats Are Evil doesn't say it covers non-aristocratic upper classes. There are literal aristocrats in the story and their social privilege relative to non-aristocrats is a plot point; against this background it seems even more questionable to count characters that are non-aristocrats in-story as "aristocrats" for the purposes of a trope. Tropes are flexible, but they are not shapeless.
As was said already, Laura's father or General Spielsdorf are not villains and not evil. That doesn't mean they are meant to be ideal or heroic people either; they're just your average "decent but flawed" human beings. Quoting from chapter 4:

My father was out of spirits that evening. On coming in he told us that there had been another case very similar to the two fatal ones which had lately occurred. The sister of a young peasant on his estate, only a mile away, was very ill, had been, as she described it, attacked very nearly in the same way, and was now slowly but steadily sinking. "All this," said my father, "is strictly referable to natural causes. These poor people infect one another with their superstitions, and so repeat in imagination the images of terror that have infested their neighbors."

: That Laura's father is "out of spirits" over the sickness of the peasant woman implies that his sympathy for the dying peasants is real and not a mere show. He is wrong in dismissing the peasantry's belief that the disease is caused by a vampire; but that's because he is a rationalist who genuinely does not believe in vampires, not because he is indifferent towards peasant suffering.

The example implies Laura's father or General Spielsdorf could have done something (or done more) to stop the epidemic, but did nothing because they did not really care about the dying peasants. But it's quite unclear what Spielsdorf and Laura's father could or should have done regarding the epidemic. They are not doctors or health officials, nor vampire experts. If they had known that Carmilla was a vampire and responsible for the disease, they presumably would have called on Baron Vordenburg at once; but they didn't know it, and it's not reasonable to expect them to have known. Laura's father certainly did not take Laura's deteriorating health lightly, and yet he was unable to stop her decline; same goes for General Spielsdorf and his niece. They acted the way they did because they did not know better. Their flaw is ignorance, not "evil" or callousness.

Edited by LordGro Let's just say and leave it at that. Hide / Show Replies

GnomeTitan Since: Aug, 2013

Sep 24th 2022 at 4:11:05 PM •••

I agree about the ”evil” part. Both Spielsdorf and Laura’s father aresupposed to be good guys. If they give a different impression today, it’s Values Dissonance rather than AAE. So it’s not an example on that ground.

As for aristocrats vs. Upper class in general, I’m not so sure. It depends a bit, I think, on how the class structure of Austria in the period actually worked - i.e. was there a big difference between aristocrats and wealthy non-aristos, or even between the upper and lower aristocracy.

GnomeTitan Since: Aug, 2013

Sep 24th 2022 at 4:15:43 PM •••

Oh, and I don’t think there’s such a thing as ”downplayed evil” in this context. The trope is about the upper classes being outright evil, not basically good people with a somewhat callous view of the lower classes.

Edited by GnomeTitan

GnomeTitan Since: Aug, 2013

Oct 12th 2022 at 11:14:50 AM •••

So I re-read the latest edit reason, and I see the point behind the re-add better now, especially if it's true that bad treatment of the lower classes is a conscious theme of the story and not just Values Dissonance.

I still don't think this is quite the right trope, though. As I wrote above, these characters are not evil, not even downplayed evil (whatever that is). In fact, part of the message in this story seems to be that the upper classes are good people.

The trope in play here is rather "what measure is a peasant" though that trope doesn't seem to exist. I'm not quite sure what to do with this example, but, even though Tropes Are Flexible, it doesn't feel quite right.

Edited by GnomeTitan

LordGro Since: May, 2010

Dec 25th 2022 at 11:10:41 AM •••

Thanks for weighing in. I pm'ed Cilver when I made the opening post above, but they did not react. I have taken this to "Is this an example?", just to be sure.

Edited by LordGro Let's just say and leave it at that.

LordGro Since: May, 2010

Mar 5th 2023 at 1:22:28 PM •••

Since there was support for deleting this entry both here and in "Is this an example?" forum, and Cilver did not return to defend the example, I'm deleting it now.

Let's just say and leave it at that.

InfinityOrNone Since: Jun, 2010

Sep 8th 2012 at 1:35:35 AM •••

OK, who neutered the Quotes page? And why the fuck would they do that?

ALTERNATIVELY: Why the hell do we have an advertisement towards a quotes page with only one quote? It makes no sense what so ever for us to advertise that you should read the quotes with the vampirism/homosexuality thing in mind if there's only one quote.

Edited by InfinityOrNone Hide / Show Replies

LordGro Since: May, 2010

Sep 8th 2012 at 11:46:51 AM •••

Well, in my eyes it makes sense, but whatever. Better now?

Btw, I removed one quote from the quotes page when I moved it over to the main page.

Let's just say and leave it at that.

MithrandirOlorin Since: May, 2012

May 22nd 2012 at 11:15:24 AM •••

I do not believe Carmilla's Languidness is about of the Daylight, she actually seems that way 24/7.

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LordGro Since: May, 2010

May 22nd 2012 at 12:52:57 PM •••

I am not sure whether it's specifically the daylight that is making her (seemingly?) "languid", but it's implied that Carmilla is actually quite active during the night. She roams the countryside feeding from victims, and she goes to Castle Karnstein and back every night. So her faintness is not a permanent state.

Let's just say and leave it at that.

MithrandirOlorin Since: May, 2012

Jul 15th 2012 at 3:17:29 PM •••

The Lanquid state is possibly an act altogether. IN the confrontation with the General she changes demeanor in an instant.

But fact remains the very first time the word is applied to her it's Night and before Carmilla is even seen in Daylight. The first time she's in Daylight Laura says "The Daylight did not diminish her beuty at all" clearly imply no adverse effect what so ever.

Edited by MithrandirOlorin

Discussion Literature / Carmilla