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206.45.177.46
topic
09:06:21 PM May 10th 2010
edited by 206.45.177.46
Earlier, the Recommendation for "Turn of the Endless Sorcerer" got zapped for no apparent reason. I have since added it back. Was there a bug in the system, or did someone not take into consideration that Fanfic Recs are subjective? Or is it part of the on-going Edit War on Umineko's WMG page? The story does contain a lot of theories, some of which have been Jossed since its publication.
79.26.145.43
10:28:23 AM Jun 7th 2010
I don't know who or what deleted it and I agree that recs are subjective, but Jane Poirot's fanfics are rather bad. Her style is simple and flows nicely, but the content isn't as great. I'm not referring to the theories that have been proved wrong by the newest EP: the plot is weak, and the characters are definitely OOC.
207.161.99.6
05:59:44 PM Jun 7th 2010
You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else, but it got deleted once again. Need I remind everyone that Fanfic Recommendations are subjective meaning not everyone will agree it is great but that alone does not justify taking it off once it has already been posted? I have read some fanfic recs that I didn't think were all that deserving of their praise, but I didn't remove them; I kept in mind some people do enjoy them for one reason or another and left them where they were.
ds25122512
09:10:42 PM Jun 7th 2010
edited by 146.83.123.98
So, hey, I'm the one that keeps deleting it. I find this "Fanfiction recs are subjective and therefore cannot be removed" imaginary rule quite hilarious. Does this mean that I can recommend whatever piece of junk I want in this page, glorify it, and no one, no one will have the right to disagree and delete it no matter how bad it is? Isn't that a bit unfair for the other side, too? Is this even an official rule?

Edit: Well apparently the "don't delete it if you don't like it" rule isn't written anywhere for what I read. And I really don't want to put the fic in the "Horrible fanfic" section because I'm not THAT much of jackass. So, I don't really see a way out of this that won't initiate loldrama.
Iaculus
06:44:18 PM Jun 8th 2010
The-usual-method-is-to-post-a-dissenting-opinion-below-the-rec,-not-delete-the-rec-entirely.-Bear-in-mind,-though,-that-excessive-back-and-forthing-will-be-shifted-to-the-discussion-page.

(apologies-for-busted-spacebar).
190.160.249.55
08:52:48 PM Jun 8th 2010
Ah, I see. Very well then.
Azuriyuu
07:06:36 PM Jun 22nd 2010
edited by Azuriyuu
Laculus, when your Spacebar breaks you can always highlight a space, right-click to copy it, then whack Ctrl+v whenever you want a space.

...But in all seriousness, if you just read a few chapters in it's not a bad fanfic at all. The farther in you get, though... Well, it's not horrible, but it doesn't even reach 'par' in my book, and I'm not about to call out Canon Rape, but I'm very willing to call out Canon Assault with a Blunt Object, as this fic falls into every single pothole that bad shipping fics that don't go the angsty route fall into.
Iaculus
04:36:26 PM Jun 23rd 2010
Unfortunately, I discovered that it's impossible to copypasta single spaces. Thankfully, the problem's fixed now. Accursed keyboard wiring.

As for the topic, I think that given the controversy over this rec, it might be best to cut the dissenting opinions, paste them here, and replace them with a note along the lines of 'Controversial recommendation - see discussion page for details'. Not to stifle criticism, you understand, just to prevent it from creeping over the main page like Japanese hogweed, as has happened with other fics like Embers in the Avatar fandom, and Naruto's notorious Chuunin Exam Day.

Sound good?
Azuriyuu
04:43:56 PM Jun 24th 2010
edited by Crystalweaver
I'll take care of it; I'm the one who posted the first dissenting opinion, so this is my fault in a way, and as a Man Of Destiny, that which I start should be that which I finish.

    Discussion about Turn of the Endless Sorcerer 
  • Mapi — Seconding the recommendation. An interesting read, it's Better Than It Sounds.
  • Azuriyuu — Pretty good in the beginning, but... eh, later on there were some elements which completely shattered my suspension of disbelief, like when Absolutely nobody on the island batted a single eyelash at the mysterious Beato who literally came out of nowhere. Erika appearing in a storm in EP 5 was obviously an unavoidable emergency situation, but anyone who randomly appeared on a privately owned island outside an emergency would be regarded with suspicion.
  • wf — Agreeing with Azuriyuu. I would also like to add that the plot twists felt rather forced and the pacing went from too slow to too fast and then slow again: in spite of the source material and the premise of the whole fic, the mystery part is poorly written and hardly the main focus of the story - not that I minded the romance, but given what the author was trying to do, the romance and mystery should have been well balanced. And it's probably the romance which made this fic so popular, although the interaction between Beatrice and Battler didn't feel like the one they had in canon at all. The same, actually, could be said about the whole cast: the characterization is perhaps the weakest point of this fic that, otherwise, had an interesting premise. Just to make a few examples. We have Beato - who never uses honorifics, except when calling Lia 'Teacher', in the series - calling Battler 'Battler-kun'. Virgilia's character was completely destroyed and the O Cs didn't fit in with the Umineko universe at all. Beatrice and Battler's relationship is perhaps one of the most complex and interesting I've ever seen, yet here it's turned into a pretty stereotypical romance, flat, and vaguely reminiscent of Harlequin novels (which I think, is what made TOTES popular in spite of its many flaws). Moreover, the author seems to forget that in spite of all the foreign names and western mansion, Umineko still takes place in Japan and (most of) the characters are Japanese: they way they talk, interact, think, and even the jokes they make, are typically western - no, I know that fanfiction isn't serious business and people write to have fun, but this wouldn't have happened if the author had paid more attention the series and had been more objective (like every writer should do), instead of letting her personal experiences, life style and views on life seep completely into the story. Also, seeing characters using terms such as zettai ryouiki or saying things like 'she went from tsun to dere' in a story that isn't humorous/doesn't want to break the fourth wall or play with fandom terms and clichés is rather weird.
    • On the other side of the scale, we have Eye of the Storm, which is a rather in character fiction that manages to have quite an interesting story in it's own right. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5950556/1/Eye_of_the_Storm - Prinnyd00d
      • wf — Not really. The fic suffers from the same flaws as TOTES. Did you see how Beato, Battler, Rudolf and everyone reacted to the baby? You think their behavior is IC? Really? Did we read the same series with the same characters? Again, it's clear that the characters act and see the situation like the author would, not like the source material suggests. The adults being unnecessarily harsh is one of the most recurring clichés in fanfiction too, not to mention that we also have a case of Law of Inverse Fertility and the baby being in danger isn't exactly new either. Also, 'Sento-kun' isn't exactly believable, given his role. Lambdadelta's 'reasons' for starting a new game (against the same people, no less) go against her characterization as well. Not to mention the fact that it's clear from the results that she didn't even make a proper research before inserting elements from EP 6 in the fic Beato's relationship with the other Beatrice, the fact that she seems to believe she's actually her counterpart, and Beato's characterization in the beginning being the most obvious examples. tl;dr both fanfics are wonderful examples of Canon Defilement.
      • It's not exactly unreasonable for Rudolf to react the way he did, and by no means is it "canon defilement". The adults ARE harsh, but only Rudolf is a jerkass in this, with most characters being at the very least sympathetic to Battler's plight. and the reasons for him being the way he is makes sense. Sento is one of the better examples of an OC that I've seen. And you are calling Canon Defilement and all that jazz, but I don't see any deviations, really. Most characters react how they tend to in the novels. With Lambdadelta, I think she's exactly as she is in the novels. She's a chaotic neutral witch who does things for shits and giggles who almost always has some kind of ulterior motive, and in EOTS this doesn't seem to change at all. Your complaints seem to stem not so much from the fact that the fanfiction is bad so much as the fact that the story is a fanfiction. I hail from the days of Ranma 1/2 fanfiction, trust me, EOTS is not Canon Defilement. TLDR: I don't see in the remotest sense how this fanfiction is Canon Defilement. Some of the plot elements, while stock, are certainly not bad. If you have an issue with the harshness of the family, which seems to be your only real complaint against the fiction, I'd politely remind you that the Ushiromiya family isn't exactly very nice and tolerant. There is a REASON all those people died on the island. -Prinnyd00d (Perhaps we should move this discussion to the talk page and slap a YMMV on here, as we seem to be at an impasse.)
  • Crystal — Going to have to agree with some of the negative reviews here. The characters did feel off to me, especially Beatrice. She seemed far more weak-willed than she ever does in canon, and her calling Battler "Battler-kun" really didn't help. Of course, characterization is, to a degree, subjective. My biggest problem with the fic is the complete inconsistencies between the fic's plot and canon. The fic is supposed to be a sequel to EP5, but it is painfully obvious that the author did not actually read the episode before writing the fic. Battler figured out the truth at the end of EP5, and that is why he became the Endless Sorcerer...so why is the whole concept of the fic about him figuring out a truth he should already know?
79.35.136.1
05:26:42 PM Jun 24th 2010
In all honesty, this wouldn't have been necessary if the whiteknights had simply let other people express their opinion, instead of replying as if a different view on the fic couldn't possibly be valid and *had* to be countered - reccing another fic by the same author no less! If this person wanted to know why some people disagreed with the rec, they could have simply asked *here* instead of starting a discussion on the recs page. I avoided replying again because I didn't think we would ever agree and because I didn't want to see the comments disappear from the main page, as they were simply different opinions on the same story - something that the people interested in reading TOTES could have found useful/interesting.

Also, to the person who claims that I criticized TOTES 'because it's a fanfic', no, just... no. I've been reading and writing fanfics for years and I love them. It's important, however, to remember that writing a fanfic = writing a story using someone else's characters = the author should do their best to portray these characters and their interaction as they are in canon. Otherwise, you can just write your own original story. A fic doesn't need to be full of horrible grammar mistakes to be a bad fic. If the author completely changes the characters and the whole atmosphere of the series - guess what - they're still failing.

The problem here isn't how JP writes - the problem is that she read (? I have my doubts) Umineko AND DIDN'T GET SHIT ABOUT IT.
190.160.134.170
06:56:21 PM Jun 24th 2010
Hoping that Jane Poirot is reading this: There's no such thing as 'zettai ryouiki outfit', hon.

Zettai Ryouiki is a ZONE. NOT AN OUTFIT.

ZONE.

NOT.

OUTFIT.

/angry otaku
Azuriyuu
10:14:17 AM Jun 25th 2010
Push button receive berserk?
TunaFish
02:09:23 AM May 7th 2011
um....can i suggest an umineko fanfic here? it's humor.....and i think it's pretty funny...
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