While I am also of the belief that the Axiom and GW are interchangeable/the same character due to the only difference between the two being the names, (and even then its a very similar name) I do think think the matter was settled fairly well for both sides, with them being kept separate but acknowledged that they are similar in that one trope.
I object the proposal however, because of these reasons.
1. If YHVH is the Great Will why does YHVH refer to it as a separate being from himself in the first place? Why even go through the trouble of adding a scene to SMT 2 justifying YHVH's defeat to Zayian/Satan as not actually going against God?
2. The wiki's argument ignores context to make its points and makes some bizarre claims, for instance trying to have Shenkiah calling out for the GW as evidence for the idea that YHVH is the GW, even though YHVH was explicitly cast down and split into multiple pieces, to the point where you can recruit YHVH (In Demiurge form) in new game + to fight Shenkiah if Law aligned. (which is why I don't think Shenkiah should be on YHVH's page)
3. Kagutsuchi as admitted by the wiki IS a form of YHVH, however it isn't the end all be all of the setting, says it works for a higher power and isn't the final threat according to Lucifer. (the exact opposite of a final nail)
4. Ignores the fact that YHVH himself is stated to be a avatar and thus conflates his connection to the GW and Axiom if it benefits him.
5. Holds out of date information, as while 5's translation did remove the references to the GW, the GW is mentioned again in 5 by other characters like Panagia and Sophia (in the Demi Fiend DLC for the latter) despite YHVH explicitly being dead.
6. Like the Axiom it is made clear that the GW is far stronger than YHVH and unlike the different YHV Hs or Lucifers is supposed to be one character. Thus why Lucifer in V is going in a very round about way in his rebellion this time. (Becoming neutral like YHVH in the process)
Edited by TheSwordsman
Finally~ I miss this kind of discussion. Let's address the points one by one.
1. The whole point of Great Will's section of the blog is to emphasize YHVH never really does refer to "Great Will" as a separate being:
- YHVH of MTII claims he is part of a greater being who controls countless universes (notably, it was never referred as "Great Will" here), so him being destroyed really doesn't matter ("Ye hear? This is not the end").
- YHVH of SMT II is the first to name "the great will of the universe" (大いなる意志). Specifically, YHVH claims it will recreate him again and again, which in-context does not claim the Great Will is a separate being from him. Rather, it continues the trend from MTII; YHVH is part of this being, so even if he is defeated he will be recreated.
- Naturally, the scene in SMTII was added to justify YHVH's defeat because in the end, even YHVH is just a bunrei of this Great Will (note that the term avatar was dijeh's translation choice; the term consistently used is bunrei as it's a Japanese game after all).
2. I am not gonna deny the writer makes bizarre interpretations at a few points. However, specifically on the part of Shekinah, think very carefully.
YHVH had a full manifestation in Strange Journey's world and was torn apart by the Mother Goddesses (though he was never mentioned by that name, instead opting for "God", and "One of Light"). However, like with MTII and SMTII, this "God" is just Great Will's manifestation in this particular world.
Demiurge and Shekinah are bunreis (also the exact term used in Strange Journey's artbook on the interview with the writers) of this "God", who is in turn a manifestation of "Great Will" in this world. It's a similar context with SMTII; like how Sabaoth, Shaddai and Elohim are bunreis for SMTII YHVH, so are Demiurge and Shekinah for SJ YHVH. Difference being, in SJ YHVH has been torn apart and not in control, so his bunreis are now acting independently each.
You might think I have been giving points which support your interpretation (Great Will is not just another name for YHVH) by pointing out instances of YHVH in SMTII and SJ are all simply manifestations of Great Will. But the blog is trying to make you see that's not the case by the 3rd point:
3. It's emphasized by SMTIII's artbook that Kagutsuchi is a name for YHVH — specifically, similar to Sabbaoth, Shaddai and Elohim being alternate names (and in SMTII, bunreis) for YHVH, so is Kagutsuchi (SMTII's artbook emphasizes YHVH uses alternate names for its bunreis). Meanwhile, SMTIII's game consistently says Kagutsuchi is a bunrei (reminder again; avatar is a translation choice, this is the term the Japanese used) of the Great Will.
Does this mean the game and the artbook of SMTIII contradict each other? Of course not, as Metatron's title in the Japanese makes it explicit; he is the Voice of God (in Demonic Compendium), while Flauros calls him Voice of Great Will (in Japanese dialogue). Is it becoming clear to you now? YHVH and Great Will refers to the same entity in the context of SMTIII.
The greater being which the YHV Hs of SMTII and SJ were part of, is indeed called the "Great Will of the Universe". But, in SMTIII, referring to the Great Will as "YHVH" is also valid (because Kaneko himself calls Kagutsuchi part of YHVH when the game claims over and again Kagutsuchi is part of Great Will).
This might seem convoluted, but keep in mind that the Great Will is a being which controls multiple universes — and it keeps using various names of YHVH (including YHVH itself) whenever it manifests in a single universe. What the blog is ultimately trying to say is the Great Will mentioned in SMTIII can be legitimately called "YHVH", but beings in the game refer to it as "Great Will" because its bunreis use various names of God, including YHVH.
4. As mentioned above, incarnations of YHVH claim to be a bunrei of the Great Will in most games. All except SMTIVA.
You can check it yourself; not even once YHVH of SMTIVA ever claims of being part of any greater being; in fact, what he consistently says is that he is the greater being, one with the universe, believing himself representing the Axiom. Or, "the unchanging universal truth" in Satan's words.
This coupled with the fact Satan pretty much says to Nanashi's face "see if you are worthy to be the next will of the universe" makes it clear this YHVH is meant to be the "Great Will" of SMTIVA and its subset of universes.
SMTIVA game itself and artbook both support this too: YHVH exists in his own space outside of universes (it's even called YHVH Universe) as he controls SMTIVA's continuity, and the artbook claims YHVH has multiple heads with the number of stars in order to show he has all the universes under his rule.
Of course, unlike the writer of the blog, I don't believe for a second SMTIVA YHVH is in control of all universes, nor is he the Great Will of previous games. He is the will of the universe of SMTIVA's continuity (and IV by extension), and as SMTIVA emphasizes — turns out even he is just a bunrei of the Great Reason/Axiom.
But while the blog writer makes their own bizarre interpretation of facts, we can't ignore the facts presented.
What we can take from the points the blog presents is that there isn't only one Great Will. The Great Will is a name referring to an entity in control of countless universes. It does not mean it is in control of everything, nor does it mean there is only one of them across reality, as it's proven time and again that there are multiple cosmologies, each with their own "countless universes" (for example, Amala holds billions of universes in Nocturne, but it is considered distinct from IV and IVA's Expanse) in this franchise.
As proof, the Messiahs of Diamond Realm DLC makes it pretty clear that even if YHVH of SMTIVA is defeated, it doesn’t affect YHVH or Great Will of other continuities who want their respective Messiahs dead. This proves the defeat of SMTIVA continuity’s “will of the universe” doesn’t affect entities from other continuities who are also referred as “will of the universe”.
SMTIVA artbook also supports this: "Shin Megami Tensei and Shin Megami Tensei II are related, while Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne and Shin Megami Tensei IV are each in their own universes" — and that Stephen is the only one who is the same person across it all. Great Will and its manifestations aren’t counted.
This means the notion of Great Will being in control of more than one continuity (and by extension assuming "Great Will" of MTII, SMTII, SMTIII and SJ is the same entity) is a mistake to begin with.
5. YHVH of SMTV might be dead, but as noted above, it is most likely just a bunrei of the "Great Will" of this continuity. The real "God" so to speak is perfectly in control of SMTV's greater cosmology, with the Mandala system in place.
6. As point 4 noted, it is a mistake for us to assume "there is only one Great Will" or that "it is in control of multiple cosmologies".
As far as we can tell, there are already multiple beings on the level of SMTIVA YHVH who explicitly controls a specific cosmology/continuity consisting of their own subsets of universes, like Devil Survivor 2’s Canopus, Digital Devil Saga’s Brahman, and of course... the Great Will, or Wills, seeing as it is apparent there are more than one.
Any being on their level can claim to the lesser beings within their domains as "Great Will" in control of all existence, and the Great Will mentioned in SMTII, SMTIII and SJ might as well be distinct but similar entities unrelated to each other who happen to share the same name and title.
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap.
1. The fact that he has to specify that he is a part of a greater being and that said greater being will be the one to resurrect him, implies they are not fully one and the same. Otherwise he would simply state that he himself will just resurrect himself later. While I am admittedly not a expert on Shintoism, (nor would I ever claim to be) I do believe the reason why the term avatar was used instead, (and why the term bunrei also does not appear for the English translation of SMTIV:A regarding YHVH's similar role with the Axiom) is that term bunrei refers to a exact copy created from dividing a kami so that it can inhabit another shrine. From the few things we do know about the GW, YHVH is does not fit this criteria. Besides not having the ability to resurrect himself and overall being less powerful, YHVH is not truly Law aligned and is more of a neutral figure and finally does not value human freedom.( Something Kagutsuchi takes issue with in 3) So YHVH while a part of the GW, isn't just another instance of that character and is different in some areas. The word avatar was used instead because it does get across the idea of being part of something but not being a duplicate to the English speaking audience.
To help explain what I think SMT is going for and why the GW folder should exist since those tropes IMO do not apply to YHVH, I would like to compare the situation to the alters of the Hulk. Bruce Banner and his alters are all part of the same person but like with the GW and YHVH, the abilities, personality and goals can vary wildly, to the point of conflict, thus why they are treated as different characters with their own folders. At the very least, Satan being given the OK to kill YHVH, implies that the being YHVH is a copy of wanted him dead.
I think something to keep in mind is YHVH, the other bunrei and the GW are all based off the real life God, which while all three of the trinity are the same being, have enough distinctions to where they have different names and purposes. (The Holy Spirit for instance being sent to comfort and teach after Jesus' departure)
2. And you would be correct, the very fact that Shenkaih the Refined Voice (Demiurge combined with Metatron) can be at odds with each other and Shenkaih lamenting that she failed the Great Will implies the 3 are separate characters. (Still a part of each other but separate non the less)
3.I'm sorry but I don't understand? The GW can indeed be called YHVH or the different names or vice versa, after all all of them in a sense are God but they do have traits that differentiate YHVH from the "original" or heck even YHVH's own bunrei. The only contradiction I see comes from a separate game all together (SJ) regarding Metatron, as he was never stated to be part of God before and is more commonly treated as a high ranking angel.
4. Because of the existence of the Axiom, which takes the GW's spot as the "original ruler of the multiverse" YHVH was split off from in the story. YHVH's actions here are also what I was referring to earlier about conflating himself. YHVH is telling the truth from a certain point of view, he indeed is part of Axiom and represents it in this verse. (out of a desire to more easily interact with humans to receive worship if I recall correctly) However as shown by the existence of the messiahs and the words of Steven and Satan, YHVH has drawn the ire of the greater being he is a part of and thus the Axiom wants him dead.
The Messiah DLC is not proof of anything, leaving aside all the continuity errors SMTIV:A has to rest of the series including IV itself, (thus I won't harp on YHVH not wanting Law!Aleph dead until the very end of the game) only YHVH is shown explicitly to have multiple versions, which "rule" their part of multiverse. As you yourself have noted the GW does not appear in SMTIV:A and has never wanted Law!Aleph dead, quite the opposite going by that added scene for Satan. To drop the pretense for a second, since unlike Dragonfire we both agree that the GW and Axiom are interchangeable, the reason the GW isn't mentioned at all one way or another in regards to the Axiom, is because its very likely that the GW is currently going by the name of Axiom, with Steven acting as it's agent since YHVH has become unreliable.
5. Which is my point, the "original" is still ruling, completely fine, with the Mandala system for V's verse in place.
6. No as the creator of the systems that govern how the multiverse works and the being that YHVH (the most often governing body for the verses) split off form it implies the opposite. The characters you bring up are only on the scale of YHVH and just because you claim something doesn't make it so. (Otherwise the two versions of YHVH from 2 and IV:A wouldn't of been put on the chopping block) If Lucifer killed any one of these beings, it wouldn't really matter for his goals, as like with YHVH, killing them does nothing to disrupt the order of SMT's multiverse.
Edited by TheSwordsman
You see, what I am trying to convey when addressing point 1, 3 and 4 is to say the so-called "Great Will" is an entity above YHVH incarnations controlling a single world or a universe (like in MTII, SMTII, and SMTIII Kagutsuchi), but still below what the general SMT fandom believes Great Will to be (responsible for all of reality).
To be specific, from the facts the blog presents, it's made quite clear each time Great Will is mentioned, it's only ever in the context of a single continuity. By continuity, I mean a single cosmology: 1 group of universes with an intrinsic connection to each other.
- SMT I, II, and related series explicitly stated to be Alternate Timeline to SMT I (such as Raidou Kuzunoha spinoffs) are all connected via the Akarana Corridor, which makes travel between different worldlines possible. This makes them all a single continuity.
- SMTIII's Amala with its billions of universes is also one continuity. SMT V might be in the same continuity (the presence of Amala Drums and the fact Conception was supposed to happen in the backstory heavily imply so), but that's not relevant for now.
- SMT IV and IVA universes is another continuity. In IV Stephen shows Flynn 3 different possibilities of the IV universe through the Expanse; and in IVA it's made clear the Goddess of Tokyo can move from this universe to another universe seeking a Messiah to take down Nanashi in Anarchy ending; different universes, but still one cosmology — same continuity.
Note that the concept of continuities aren't made up by the fandom; the SMTIVA artbook makes it clear the directors also use the concept. Only, dijeh chose to translate 宇宙 into "universe" — for example, "Shin Megami Tensei and Shin Megami Tensei II are related, while Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne and Shin Megami Tensei IV are each in their own universes".
This makes things confusing since it's made explicit SMT III and IV consist of multiple universes (or at least multiple possibilities of the universe for the latter) each, so to make it simpler I chose to call a group of universes with an intrinsic connection as "continuity".
Because of the similarities between the Great Will mentioned in SMT II continuity and III's Amala (not to mention MTII and SJ), the general fandom (including you and previously me as well) assume they are the same entity, controlling multiple continuities/groups of universes. What the blog is trying to convey is, that is not the case.
The primary evidence being, in SMTIVA, Satan asks Anarchy!Nanashi if he is worthy to be the next "will of the universe" whom he is out to replace. As you and I know, that is a title exclusive to the Great Will, so Satan is asking Nanashi if he is worthy to be the next Great Will.
This is supported by the artbook stating YHVH in SMTIVA is indeed in control of multiple universes in SMTIVA continuity ("in order to show he has all the universes under his rule"), unlike "smaller" YHVH incarnations shown in MTII, SMTII, and SJ (each of whom controls just a single world in their respective games).
The blog makes the mistake of assuming this means SMTIVA YHVH is also Great Will mentioned in the previous games, but we know better. Satan states Nanashi can replace YHVH as the Will of the Universe of SMTIVA, so we should not assume he is more than that.
What we can take from this is, since the Great Will of SMTIVA is in fact just YHVH controlling one continuity (mind you, one continuity is still a group of countless universes), why do we assume Great Will of previous games are all this one great being who controls the entire SMT multiverse?
Isn't it more likely now that each mention of Great Will refers to a specific entity controlling a specific continuity? As in, Great Will of Amala is not the same as Great Will of SMT II continuity, and so do other mentions of Great Will?
Note every mention of Great Will has never explicitly claimed they are in charge of the entire multiverse, at the absolute most in MTII YHVH only claims "I am a part of a being who controls countless universes" and in Nocturne, "such is the way of Amala, as determined by the Great Will"; i.e. one continuity each. It's just each time they are mentioned, they seem similar enough that we assume they are all one entity (making us assume it's Continuity Nod, when they might very well be cases of Alternate Self).
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap.
I think we assume there is only GW due to a combination of Unreliable Expositor, The Ghost, YHVH himself saying there is a greater being, the admittedly, as you stated, false but easy assumption that multiverse means the entire SMT franchise and the overall distaste for IV:A due to its continuity errors and the anarchy route in general. To be fair to your viewpoint, (even though personally I still think there is one GW) since my issue with your proposal isn't the idea per say that like with YHVH, there could be multiple G Ws, which govern a continuity like YHVH governs a world, if you instead would like to include the possibility of the GW also having multiple counterparts per continuity like YHVH and Lucifer into the GW's folder, while only moving any tropes from IV:A to YHVH. I think thats completely fair and reasonable. After all Law already prides itself on it's confusing and convoluted lore, we know so little about the GW for certain and the Axiom's existence (which by my very statement of being IV:A's GW counterpart) could be taken as a point towards that idea.
My issue stems from the idea of merging all the tropes back into YHVH, as I don't agree that YHVH and the GW are the same character most of the time, since most of the time they are clearly stated to be separate if connected.
Edited by TheSwordsman
Hum... I apologize in advance. It would seem that one of the primary evidence for this notion is in fact false.
I personally checked the Japanese version of the scene where Satan says “will of the universe” in English — in Japanese Satan only challenges Nanashi if he is worthy to be the next 祖 (read as So; meaning founder or ancestor), so in reality “Great Will” still wasn’t referenced in the Japanese version of the game.
In other words — it’s a case of misleading translation. Since that is one of the primary basis for assuming that SMTIVA YHVH is in fact a being on the level of Great Will, this means I must admit the blog is mistaken on that front (and so am I).
This would mean it is still less assumptive to stick with our current compromise. There is no denying that all Great Will being one in the same has strong explanatory power (mainly the fact every YHVH always has lines which reference their prior appearances, and that Lucifer in SMT V makes it seem the Will could not be touched, and instead focuses on its system the Mandala).
While it is still possible the Great Will has cases of Alternate Self, currently there is no explicit indication for that — unlike YHVH and other avatars of Great Will, who definitively have different selves across different universes.
My apologies for stirring up a discussion over a mistranslation. Should have confirmed THAT first before bringing it up.
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap.
Its alright, after all thats part of the reason we have the discussion page. I'll get onto the other major edit we discussed (regarding Sheinkah and making it more in line of V's format) tomorrow, as I should have the time then.
Fellow Troper
This is a pre-emptive move, I am sure it will be brought up again as I already saw people editing each other's additions out in the page history, about Great Will and Axiom.
Before I begin; spoiler warning, I will discuss details from Shin Megami Tensei V to start with.
In this game, the Great Will is referred as "great will of the universe" again by both Sophia and the Goddess of Creation (who is a manifestation of the Will to help individuals reach the Throne, in our latest case of Eternal Recurrence). However, it also receives a new name: Mandala System or the Mandala, which is coined by Lucifer at the Final Boss Battle.
The Mandala is an ambiguous title; it could refer to the Great Will, or to the systems placed by the Great Will in this game's continuity (which would mean it's essentially still part of Great Will, but the semantics are different; much like how in Last Bible the Universal Will is a mere manifestation of the Great Will in this continuity and not the whole entity said to oversee infinite universes).
If we consider Mandala as a valid name and referring to Great Will, does this mean transcendent entities know and perceive the Great Will by a different name than lesser beings? Lucifer calls himself transcendent during his Boss Banter (and he does say and do things which wouldn't be possible if he doesn't know about Great Will and the systems put in place in this universe), and he refers to the will of the universe as Mandala System, different from Sophia and the Goddess.
In other words, should we consider the Mandala as one of the valid names referring to the Great Will, or is the Mandala a separate entity like how some of us deemed both YHVH and the Axiom as distinct from each other and from the Great Will? This begs for a discussion.
IF the Mandala is a distinct figure from the Great Will and simply refers to the system placed in SMTV's continuity, then Axiom and Mandala are likely a new class of entities in our franchise; they are sentient cosmic forces unique to a few continuities which permits for the existence of Creator Gods (YHVH for a common example) in their respective continuities.
In an analogy:
- If Great Will refers to the abstract, incomprehensible entity who is the whole infinite ocean of Megaten franchise, with infinite universes existing as bubbles within it,
- Then Axiom and Mandala would be something akin to the laws keeping each bubble together, governing its structures, with the lesser entities dwelling inside being influenced by these laws,
- While YHVH and Creator Gods are specific entities chosen by the laws to shape the insides of the bubble, directly managing the system and to an extent able to control how the components interact.
IF Mandala is a valid name to refer to Great Will itself, and if transcendent entities DO perceive Great Will differently enough from lesser beings which leads to them calling it differently,
Then the distinction between Great Will, Axiom and Mandala would be unnecessary, because Stephen is a confirmed transcendent and Axiom would just be a name he coined, much like Lucifer does Mandala in this game.
I am not saying all of these are facts (only things directly mentioned by the games and artbooks and the developers are definite facts), but as I said, this is a PRE-EMPTIVE move.
I want all future discussions about this topic to at least be informed of this much, though my apologies if I add too much of my own interpretation of things.
Be sure to take care to distinguish facts from my interpretations, and try to answer these 2 questions I coined moving forward as more info about the game are revealed. If I miss or mistake details, I am happy to be corrected; and feel free to ask more questions related to the topic.
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap. Hide / Show Replies
Well the previous argument with the Axiom was more of a compromise instead of a complete agreement that the Axiom and the GW were two separate beings, basically waiting for one explicit statement one way or the other if the Axiom is Steven's name for the GW or not. (for further context I am under the impression the Axiom and GW are one and the same and earlier argued as such) From your description though Mandala seems to be a separate name, than something truly distinct, especially since both names are used in the same game. It would also make sense for lesser beings of certain factions to use different names. There is one thing that supports the Mandala is a system from the GW however, and that is the similar sounding Amala Network.
Edited by TheSwordsman
I'm late to this particular discussion, but I'd thought I'd chime in since I was looking at the Japanese version of the game recently.
For context, the Great Will has always either been called 大いなる意思 or 大いなる意志 (both terms have the same reading and meaning, with only one kanji being different). Sophia explicitly uses 大いなる意志 to refer to the Great Will in V.
The Japanese name for the Mandala System is "マンダラの法則," which translates to "Law of Mandala." It is probably not meant to be the same thing as the Great Will, as it is not referred to by the name that the series has always used to refer to the Great Will.
Edited by dragonfire5000
That's part of what I mentioned at the pre-emptive move. Sophia mentions Great Will, and the Goddess of Creation Panagia also mentions she is part of the "will of the universe" (another way Great Will has been referred to), claiming she is a goddess whose purpose is to help a new Ruler to reach the Throne (in other words, to perpetuate the whole system of death and rebirth of the universe).
Lucifer specifically refers to this phenomenon perpetuating the system of "a Ruler rising to create a new world, being felled, and then replaced, with the universe being destroyed each time it happens" as the "Law of Mandala" you speak of.
The purpose of our discussion (which hasn't started YET, what I did was a pre-emptive move) is to try and come to a conclusion for this. Panagia claims she is acting on behalf of the Great Will, but Lucifer claims the system Panagia perpetuates as the Mandala. Knowing this, which one is which; and how do each relate? Any other point we have missed which might nudge us to getting a thorough answer to the inquiry?
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap.
My personal interpretation is that the Mandala System is something put into place by the Great Will. It's not the Great Will itself, but it is something created by it.
After rewatching Apocalypse's English and Japanese playthrough, rereading eirikrj
's translation of Apocalypse's artbook in addition to comparing it with dijeh's own presentation of it, combined with the information given to us by V's game, I think all of us, but especially myself, have been overcomplicating things.
Let me begin with a preface: I am sure I am speaking for all of us when I say anything implied and narrated in the games and stated by the developers themselves take precedence over any assumption or interpretation we make. With this in mind, let us get things straight, starting from the initial disagreement whether 大いなる意志 (Megami Tensei II and SMT II) or 大いなる意思 (Nocturne) is the same as the entity spoken of in Apocalypse, 大いなる理.
As noted by eirik, both 大いなる意志 and 大いなる意思 translate to the Great Will despite using a different kanji, and it's made official when localizations of Nocturne all name 大いなる意思 as the Great Will. Except as dijeh pointed out, both 意志 and 意思 are quite distinct in Japanese, even if the difference can be semantics for the uninitiated.
Now to the meat of the matter: Apocalypse's 大いなる理, which also means something philosophically different from both words used to describe Great Will, as "理" (Ri/Kotowari, more or less, natural Reason of things; it's a similar concept to the one used in Nocturne though it was in katakana and didn't use any kanji) is distinct from both 志 ("kokorozashi") or 思 ("shi").
Because of this change in kanji, some of us in the fandom have assumed Great Will and Axiom as two distinct entities, because the different wording 大いなる理 used in all of Apocalypse and the absence of both 大いなる意志 and 大いなる意思 means the Great Will is absent and suggesting a distinction. However putting and exploring the meanings of all three terms together, it becomes apparent the usage of different kanjis is not meant as distinction, but simply done to better suit the themes of their respective games, seeing as 大いなる意志 of MT II and SMT II changes into 大いなる意思 for Nocturne, then changes again into 大いなる理 which is in itself a reference to the Kotowari/Reason concept of Nocturne.
This isn't the first time the kanji of an important concept changes either: 魔界 or Makai (localized to many different names in the West: Demon World, Abyss, and most recently Expanse), also had a different kanji in IMAGINE, being 魔階 as opposed to 魔界. As looking up Japanese dictionaries will tell you, 界 generally means "realm" or "world" while 階 refers more to "plane" or "floor" (kinda like the Kalpas of Labyrinth of Amala in Nocturne). Yet despite this IMAGINE's version of 魔階 isn't anything significantly different from 魔界 of the games before, or indeed after it.
More importantly, Stephen himself does not make that distinction. I think I speak for most of us when I say we overlooked one thing; during Messiahs in the Diamond Realm, Stephen mentions by extending a chance of salvation to The Hero, Aleph, Demi-fiend and IV's Flynn, he is defying the laws put in place by 大いなる理 or the Axiom. This is in spite of the fact SMT I and II world is explicitly governed by 大いなる意志 wording of Great Will and III's Amala is also unambiguously governed by 大いなる意思 wording of Great Will. If either of these Great Wills are distinct from each other or from Axiom, then Stephen would have mentioned he is defying the laws put in place by more than just the Axiom, but also these entities. The fact Stephen does not distinguish them does not directly prove they are the same, but it also does not imply any distinction whatsoever. In fact, to posit that 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理 are distinct is Wild Mass Guessing.
While it is possible any of this is an oversight on account of different writers and producers, we should not put speculations beyond what is stated by the games and the developers. Bottom line, we should not distinguish 大いなる意志, 大いなる意思, and 大いなる理 beyond what are implied by the games themselves. Stephen makes no such distinction and neither should we.
That's the first conclusion I have arrived to, but I am not done yet. The information from V brings us to another conundrum; Great Will (大いなる意志, which is from MT II and SMT II and not Nocturne) and Mandala (マンダラの法則); are they the same or distinct?
Fortunately, we can answer this much more clearly. One of SMT's older games have used something extremely similar to the Mandala System spoken of in V, and that was the Eternal Recurrence System in NINE. Unlike in V where the distinction between Great Will and Mandala can be hard to tell (due to Panagia claiming she is acting on behalf of Great Will while Lucifer claims she perpetuates the Mandala System instead), in NINE the distinction is very much made clear; the Eternal Recurrence System is distinct from Yaldabaoth (explicitly noted to be this game's YHVH) and also distinct from the Great Will (though it is not mentioned in this game, STEVEN's presence and assistance in this game speaks enough).
However, that is how it worked in NINE. How do we explain Lucifer calling the system Panagia is a part of the Mandala while Panagia herself claims she is acting on behalf of Great Will (like Nocturne's Kagutsuchi and Metatron did)? Let's stick to what is mentioned in the game itself; Lucifer claims he became a transcedent, and indeed he does and say things he would never be able to unless he is aware of Great Will and its systems in this universe.
Given that it's mentioned over and again Great Will is quite literally everything and all of reality is part of it (first stated in MT II; further reinforced in Last Bible and SMT II), it's a logical conclusion that Panagia could not distinguish the Mandala System (which is only part of Great Will) from the whole entity like Lucifer does after transcending. It's quite similar to how most incarnations of YHVH (NINE, Strange Journey Redux, IV: Apocalypse, etc) claim they are acting on behalf of Great Will while it's quite apparent they are... not.
Overall, my second conclusion is the Mandala System is only part of Great Will's system in SMT V continuity, based on information we have so far.
Any thoughts on the 2 conclusions I have drawn? If there is no detail which contradicts any of the things I have mentioned, I will work right away and edit in the Axiom's tropes back to the Great Will folder in this page, among other things.
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap.
Thanks, I did indeed miss that point of evidence in the original debate, instead focusing on the traits that were shared. While I am in agreement in your conclusion and have even argued for it before, I feel it best to at least wait for Dragonfire's response and/or leave it to a vote. As the compromise is what led to the Great Will section in the first place.
As for the Mandala System, I agree here as well but there is one small correction here that I need to point out. It is Shienkah not YHVH that makes that claim in SJ Redux, YHVH is instead usurped and split into multiple parts that are normally different characters, Metatron and Demiurge. (though considering how often YHVH is twisted into a Demiurge figure its no wonder Demiurge serves as the base for the fusion) If helped and despite keeping Demiurge's appearance, YHVH will regain his more benevolent personality that he is said to have in the backstories of the SMT games and what justifies him as the main avatar and either wish a Neutral player sucess or join on Law, where can directly serve a role in killing Shienkah.
The thing about IV Apocalypse is that it's a different setting that operates under different rules. It's a separate universe with different cosmology, and said cosmology does not feature the Great Will in it. A lot of games will have references to previous games, but they will also have enough differences that you can say the settings are operating under different rules.
Heck, even in the Diamond Realm DLC, the different worlds that the heroes come from have different cosmologies; for example, Demi-fiend's setting has Kagutsuchi as YHVH, while Flynn's setting has Lucifer being split off from Satan and meant to play the role of a scapegoat. And for all the similarities V has to Nocturne, its backstory of all gods being Nahobino and being forcibly split apart is absent in Nocturne.
Stephen supposedly not making a distinction between the Great Will and the Axiom is also not really evidence of the two being the same and can easily be interpreted as him only talking about the Axiom specifically and not the Great Will. Interestingly, every mention of 理 in the Japanese script of the Diamond Realm DLC lacks the "大いなる" part and only uses 理, so he might not even be referring to the Axiom as an entity here and may be just talking about a general "bending the laws of the universe."
As long as there is no explicit confirmation from the devs that the Great Will and the Axiom are one and the same, this wiki should keep them separate. People troping things that seem "obvious" to them has led to more than one trope or audience reaction being taken to the cleanup thread, because sometimes what seems "obvious" isn't actually what the creators intended.
Finally, for what it's worth, Japanese fans apparently treat the Axiom as an equivalent of the Great Will rather than the same entity with a different name. Which, given the difference in their names' meanings, is understandable.
Edited by dragonfire5000
The different cosmologies of different sets of universes is exactly why Stephen mentions he needs to bend the 理 of things in the Japanese script. The interview with Yamai mentions Stephen (along with another two) manages to transcend the cycle of spoken of in the Apocalypse game due to comprehending a small movement of the 大いなる理, but it does not mean just 理 is something tied to a single universe (in this case Apocalypse).
Note that travel between different universes within the same cosmology (or continuity, or multiverse, as there are multiple multiverses present in SMT franchise) are distinct from travel between different cosmologies;
- In SMT IV's cosmology, Flynn or anyone else only needs the Yamato Perpetual Reactor to travel between one universe (main game's timeline) to another (Blasted and Infernal Tokyo)
- In Nocturne's Amala, demons and gods (even false gods like Aradia) can easily travel between one Vortex World to another; and it's established by Lady in Black each "world" in the Amala Universe (itself a case of Lost in Translation; the word 宇宙 is better translated as Space or Cosmos in this case) is actually a universe by itself as Aradia came from a universe which has died out due to the failure of starting the Conception. In V, implied to be connected to Nocturne, the Fiends and Demi-fiend also find their way to the game's universe from "another place, another time" through the system of Amala implied to exist due to the presence of Amala Drums.
- In Devil Summoner continuity, travel between parallel universes are also easier due to the presence of Akarana Corridor. Hell, Alternate Self shenanigans happen repeatedly in this cosmology.
Meanwhile, what Stephen did (connecting together Messiahs from different universes, each of whom belongs to a different cosmology/continuity with their own laws and cosmic systems) is explicitly done by bending "the 理 of things", according to Japanese script. This means even without the 大いなる part, the 理 is something which exists even across different cosmologies as Stephen needs to defy it to allow interaction in the Diamond Realm.
Additionally, even in Japanese Stephen mentions each and every one of the Messiahs are born from 理 (translated to the Axiom), not just Nanashi. This is despite the fact they are from different cosmologies. This means the 理 is, beyond any doubt, something which isn't exclusive to just IV Apocalyse cosmology.
Because of this, as I mentioned, the fact Stephen makes no distinction between the 理 of things with both 大いなる意志 governing SMT I and II as well as 大いなる意思 of Nocturne would mean we don't need to, either. We are supposed to trope things based PURELY on what is narrated, implied, and stated by the games and their developers; making a distinction when there is none is speculation and should be kept off the trope pages.
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap.
Stephen also doesn't outright say that the Axiom and the Great Will are the same thing, and the Great Will is not mentioned anywhere in IV Apocalypse anyways. Again, unless the devs explicitly state that the Axiom and the Great Will are the same thing, they should NOT be treated as such.
Again, it's been pointed out that Japanese fans noticed the difference in names and seem to believe that the Great Will is not the Axiom, treating it as a similar entity in the IV Apocalypse setting. Considering the Great Will has always been called some form of "ooinaru ishi" in its appearances, I'm inclined to believe them in this case.
Edited by dragonfire5000
That’s also speculation. Both information from Apocalypse game and artbook have confirmed 大いなる理 and 理 are present not just in Apocalypse cosmology but also beyond, as it’s explicitly stated by Stephen the protagonists of Shin Megami Tensei I, II, III and IV are also born of 理 like Nanashi is (we won’t count other protagonists in, that’s speculation and we want to avoid that).
Stephen claims in each of those universes (a version of) YHVH exists and has tried to kill the Messiahs off to force an end to their paths, and remove them from the cycle of reincarnation if at all possible. Stephen explicitly describes (each of those) YHVH fears the Messiahs born of 理.
If we are to make a distinction between Axiom and Great Will which some of those YHVH(s) are born from (explicitly stated in I, II and III) that means the YHVH(s) fear things (Messiahs) born from something they might not even be aware of. They are part of Great Will and constantly mention such; would they be aware of 理 (as I have proven time and again using in-game statements, definitively confirmed to be present in different cosmologies) much less the Messiahs born from it?
Yamai mentions Stephen and the other two have comprehended a part of 大いなる理; while the game explicitly states Apocalypse’s YHVH is a part of 理 but does not comprehend it the way Stephen does and isn’t even going the way it wants him to as Creator God. If Apocalypse’s version of YHVH can barely comprehend the Axiom he is born from, are we saying YHVH(s) born from something else can comprehend Axiom enough to fear Messiahs born from it? That’s already extra speculations.
What I am saying is, going by the conclusion they are distinct creates even more unnecessary speculations. Even if it’s not your intention, simply CHOOSING to distinguish Axiom and Great Will imply a variety of details which are themselves speculations. With that said, for troping purposes we should keep speculations to the minimum, and go with it the way the in-game character themselves say it. Stephen makes no direct confirmation Great Will is Axiom; but to say they are distinct would mean there are 2 abstract entities governing multiple cosmologies in the franchise (Great Will and Great Reason) possibly in conflict with one another, an EXTREME franchise-wide game changing speculation. That’s DEFINITELY not the choice we should go.
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap.
The interview in the artbook doesn't actually say that the Axiom is part of the entire series cosmology, it just mentions that the devs think of how humans were created to be observers, and said observations ended up giving rise to gods and how YHVH can be considered a bunrei of the Axiom in the setting of IV Apocalypse.
In the main game of IV Apocalypse the Goddess of Tokyo only states that the Axiom is the binding force of the universe and that it sometimes creates two messiahs in times of need. So what we are given is that the Axiom is a binding force of the IV duology's universe, but the game itself does not mention it going into multiversal territory.
And even if it did have a presence in the cosmology of the other games, it still isn't explicit confirmation that it and the Great Will are the same thing. It is not unheard of for entities of similar scale to exist together in fiction, after all.
Also, I'm looking at the Diamond Realm DLC again, but I'm not seeing anything that says the Axiom created the other three Messiahs. Considering how the universes the messiahs come from differ from each other (save for I and II), it seems just as possible that the Axiom is not responsible for their creations. I'll continue going over the Diamond Realm DLC just to be safe.
My take is still this: if the developers don't explicitly confirm the two are the same, don't treat them as the same on this wiki. As far as I know, the devs have not confirmed they are the same being, and fan consensus in the game's homeland seems to indicate they don't treat the two as the same thing either. If the devs ever straight up confirm that the two are the same entity, then it should be okay to mention it on this wiki, but until then, just leave the two separate.
Edited by dragonfire5000
The Diamond Realm's DLC does not mention Axiom created the other three Messiahs; Stephen explains in the main game that Messiahs are humans created by the Axiom meant to decide for its future and are essentially the way Axiom interacts with IV Apocalypse's cosmology. Then, in the DLC Stephen outright mentions they, "like you, are messiahs" - so it's quite explicit.
Even if we assume that is not confirmation that the Axiom is present in multiple continuities, Stephen outright says the Goddess tried to prevent the Hero's soul from being taken out from the cycle of reincarnation, but she failed. It's quite explicit the Goddess can reach for a universe of a different cosmology. Then, Stephen himself can travel to a different cosmology. It's beyond explicit the Axiom's influence can go beyond just Apocalypse's cosmology.
But since we have reached this point, I propose a different sort of compromise from before. We cannot come to an agreement because either giving or not giving a definite distinction between Great Will and Axiom both create unnecessary speculations. Rather than going with just one of them, I say just specify both;
For Great Will's folder in this page, specify at the beginning;
Known as 大いなる意志 (in Megami Tensei II, Last Bible, Shin Megami Tensei II and Shin Megami Tensei V) and 大いなる意思 (in Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne), localized as "Great Will" in Nocturne.
Then add this trope;
- Ambiguous Situation: The entry of Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse introduces an entity named "大いなる理" (lit. Great Reason, Great Truth; localized into "The Axiom"), who governs over the game's universe using YHVH as its avatar and bestows humanity with Observation. The DLC Messiahs in the Diamond Realm expands on it by stating the protagonists of I, II, III and IV are Messiahs it created to oppose the YHVH(s) ruling their respective universes, three of which are explicitly governed by the Great Will. This makes it somewhat unclear if the Axiom is supposed to be another name for the Great Will or a distinct entity with similar influence over the many different continuities within the Shin Megami Tensei franchise.
Similarly, on the Character page of Apocalypse, we should add Axiom's folder (given as it turns out both the game and the artbook give enough details for it to have at least a few tropes), and similarly make it as clear as possible that it's currently not possible to determine whether Great Will and Axiom are the same.
Because this way, we wouldn't be treating any speculation as fact, but we will mention all the available details which support and contradict any speculations.
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap.
The mentions of the Axiom creating humans and two messiahs is in context of the IV duology universe; the part where he and the Goddess mention it only say the universe. Nowhere does it say that there is only one way to create "messiahs" across multiple universes, so there isn't explicit confirmation that the Axiom is responsible for Hero, Aleph, and Demi-fiend.
I don't think Ambiguous Situation is the correct entry to use, since the thing about the Axiom is something that the game itself never brings up as ambiguous and the characters never ponder about. Interestingly enough, Ambiguous Situation is NOT an audience reaction, so it seems like it requires some objectivity in it.
If an Axiom character entry is written for IV Apocalypse, it should not mention the Great Will since the game the Axiom appears in does not mention the Great Will at all. Mentions that it may be the Great Will would count as Speculative Troping.
Which, on a related note, probably means that mentions of the Aleph = Hijiri fan theory on the Nocturne character page needs to be scrubbed out as well, considering that said theory seems to have originated in the West and that Japanese fans, from what I heard, don't really subscribe to that theory since the original texts don't really do anything to imply a connection...
Edited by dragonfire5000
The part where the Goddess and Stephen both can influence other universes outside of IV Apocalypse are explicit however; Yamai made it a point to outright state Stephen is the same person all across the games. He manages to do so due to comprehending a small part of the The Great Reason's movements, so it's explicit the Axiom can reach other continuities, but you are right that other messiahs do not necessarily come from it.
Not Ambiguous Situation then; how about Suspiciously Similar Substitutes? This works for both Great Will and Axiom; though for Hijiri and Aleph... I will leave that alone. That's not relevant to this.
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap.
This part of the Suspiciously Similar Substitute description seems to suggest that it's not just for "These characters are kind of similar."
It seems to have some repair shop threads in the Repair Shop Morgue, which I'm looking at right now to see what sort of discussion was had. If the quoted part of the description is necessary, then Suspiciously Similar Substitute might not be a fit since, as newer games show, the Great Will hasn't left due to real-life distractions.
Edited by dragonfire5000
I read it too, but the overwhelming amount of examples in that trope in which the characters get replaced not because of real life situations but because they need to be replaced in-universe by plot necessity suggest otherwise. Besides, going by that description no example should ever exist for comic books and literatures, and video game examples would be vastly lower in number due to book characters being all fictional and not all video game characters needing voice actors.
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap.
It definitely looks it's heavily misused, assuming the main description is still a requirement. Tropers misusing a trope, what a shock. It's also not a good sign that the repair threads for it clocked out due to inactivity.
Might be something worth bringing up again in Trope Repair, assuming it doesn't clock out like the previous threads.
Edited by dragonfire5000
Since Suspiciously Similar Substitute won't do for now, would Expy work? It's very clear the Axiom is built up to be similar to the Great Will (if distinct they are) and the fact Yamai uses the Axiom as an Enigmatic Empowering Entity in a way Great Will is never known to do fulfills the 2 basic requirements (it's clear one is based on another, and it follows a different character direction). Then in the trope entry itself, specify how it's still well within possibility they are connected or are even two forms of the same being because it's still unconfirmed.
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap.
Expy is one of the more heavily misused things on this site, so I'd be very careful about using it. From the Expy page:
I'd be especially careful with Expy since we have had cases where a character seemed "obviously" based on another, only for the creator to come out and reveal it isn't the case. I remember Ivankov from One Piece being labeled as an expy for Dr. Frank-N-Furter since he looks a lot like him and has a lot of similarities...only for the manga creator to state it wasn't the case, and that Ivankov was instead based on Imamura Norio.
I'm also not sure if it meets the "is a character from one series who is unambiguously and deliberately based on a character in another, older series" part, since the games are part of the same series.
Edited by dragonfire5000
Yamai certainly never mentioned anything like basing Great Reason on Great Will, especially since we are still on the fence about the connection/distinction between the two...
Convenient Replacement Character on a continuity-scale? Trying to find a trope to replace Suspiciously Similar Substitute so we can settle this once and for all so future editors who don't bother reading discussions will have a room to add their speculative troping in a way that does not harm the wiki's administrivia rules.
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap.
I mean, tropers shouldn't be adding speculative troping at all. That's against site rules.
Convenient Replacement Character mentions a character arriving conveniently to replace an outgoing one. As Strange Journey Redux and V show, the Great Will probably doesn't count as an outgoing character.
Edited by dragonfire5000
No, we shouldn't. But as I mention, I intend to specify the fact it is just not currently possible to definitively confirm Great Will and Axiom's connection or distinction with each other, and mention it in their profiles rather than remaining quiet about it as with the previous compromise. That way there wouldn't be people adding entries of Apocalypse over and again in Great Will's folder until definitive confirmation comes out.
I think Suspiciously Similar Substitute might be the only one which works given its description in a few pages such as Substitution Tropes is simply "A character gets replaced with a character similar enough that their name is the only major difference between the two." The Laconic page as well.
Never thought I'd live to see the day of myself hoping to use a trope's description being changed. Meh, I will think up another if that isn't workable.
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap.
I can accept that Suspiciously Similar Substitute is probably the closest to not being misuse, compared to things like Expy and Convenient Replacement Character.
I'd be careful of laconic descriptions though, as those have a tendency to get misused on the site as well (what a shocker, right?) due to the tropers adding them not always reading the trope descriptions completely.
Then let's finalize? First, adding these to Great Will's folder:
Known as 大いなる意志 (in Megami Tensei II, Last Bible, Shin Megami Tensei II and Shin Megami Tensei V) and 大いなる意思 (in Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne), the name is localized as "Great Will" in Nocturne and V.
Then the trope to Great Will's folder;
- Suspiciously Similar Substitute: Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse introduces an entity named "大いなる理" (lit. Great Reason, Great Truth; localized as "The Axiom"), who governs over the game's universe using YHVH as its avatar and bestows humanity with Observation. The artbook of the game further explains Stephen became a transcendent entity capable of moving between different continuities because of comprehending a small part of it. This makes it unclear if the Axiom is supposed to be another name for the Great Will or a distinct entity with similar influence over the many different continuities within the Shin Megami Tensei franchise.
Then later on for Axiom's profile:
- Suspiciously Similar Substitute: The Axiom shares a number of characteristics and roles with the Great Will mentioned in other Megami Tensei-titled games, being an abstract Cosmic Entity with influences over multiple universes across different continuities and having YHVH as avatars. However, the distinct concept used for its name, the limited amount of information available both in and out of universe for the Axiom, as well as Great Will's status as The Ghost in general makes it impossible to define a connection between the two or even if they are distinct entities.
Sorry for being late to the discussion, I'm also in support of the additional compromise. Regarding something Dragonfire 5000 brought up earlier, I agree that Aleph = Hijiri should be scrubbed, not because of apparent fan reaction from the game's home country (as fans don't decide continuity, which is why in this discussion I have refrained from using the point that the vast majority of SMT fans see the GW and Axiom as one and the same including both wikis as evidence in support) but because even over here the theory is full of holes and is not supported by all the endings of SMT 2, especially if Aleph canonically did go Law like SMT 4 A implies.
Fellow Troper
Why is the image for YHVH used the Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse one? The Apocalypse version should just be used on the Character Page of Apocalypse, no? The one on this main page should be the most recurring version, the giant yellow head from Shin Megami Tensei II. Or is there any reason to use the Apocalypse version in this particular page?
Don't worry about things. Life is cheap. Hide / Show Replies
The one in Apocalypse has the same design as the recurring one, just having multiple heads in the background which is why I thought nothing of it. If you want to change it, I think thats fine, either one works IMO.
I think that the Great Will entry should not include the Axiom. There's a translation of the Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse artbook where the translator notes that the Japanese name for the Axiom is different than what the Great Will is usually referred to. Seems like any relationship between the Great Will and the Axiom are WMG at best, and WMG should be kept off of character pages.
Yeah, the Great Will isn't mentioned at all in Apocalypse. This whole misunderstanding is probably due at least in part to the localization timeframe being odd by modern Atlus standards - it wasn't even announced for the west until after the Japanese release. Thus, a lot of people, myself included, got spoiled and believed everything, true or not, at face value, and the long wait caused rumors to spread. Between the artbook and the total lack of the phrase "Great Will", it's safe to say that any connection between the Great Will and Axiom is still undetermined, as well as YHVH's place in the whole thing. There were other errors spread, too, but this one is the most believed.
The fact that it's Great Reason in Japanese does suggest a connection, and even a few games changed up the way Great W Ill is written in Japanese. So both can be kept together, but a distinction must be made clear that it's ambiguous exactly what the connection is. Ambiguity is a big part of how the Great Will worked in the first place.
Edited by OmegaRadiance Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Suggestions of connections is still speculation, and character pages should not contain speculations. Unless there is concrete evidence of a connection, then we shouldn't include it on the page until said concrete evidence appears.
Well we shouldn't include Great Will at all, because it's nature is too ambiguous to properly characterize to begin with. But if it stays it and Axiom are not distinct enough to deserve having separate profiles as they fundamentally work the same from what has been shown.
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
I'm of the camp that the Axiom probably shouldn't have a profile at all, so I'd be okay if the Great Will doesn't have a profile either. Too much speculation for a character profile.
^ By the way, I'd like to bring up the point you brought up in the Shin Megami Tensei thread about the Axiom not being of the Law alignment and something that each side sees differently. I feel this is something worth considering when deciding what to do with the Great Will/Axiom entry.
The Axiom is also described as the origin. All Gods originate from it, Not just YHVH, he's just the most noticeable due to being the Creator of IV's Universe.
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
OK I have gone over the interview dragonfire5000 has given me and to properly go through this discussion, I think it best to review what we know about The Great Will and the Axiom. Game sources can be found on Youtube if you don't have a copy, while the interview has already been provided by dragonfire5000. (I hold the belief that they are the same character, which is also the same conclusion the SMT Reddit and both SMT wikis have gone with, but for the sake of argument I will keep them separate)
First lets go over the Axiom/Great Reason,
1. It is known as the Great Reason/Axiom (source: SMTIV:A and it's interview)
2.. It created the universe and humans and gifted them the power of observation (source: SMTIV:A and it's interview)
3. It created YHVH as an avatar, out of a desire to be worshiped. (source: interview)
4. It’s something along the lines of a god born out of the collective unconscious which came from shared awareness, despite being the first being. (source: interview)
5. Some time later it goes against YHVH and creates two messiahs to stop him. (source: SMTIV:A )
Now the Great Will,
1. It is first mentioned in Megami Tensei II, upon YHVH's defeat, he states that he is only a small part of the entity which rules over infinite universes, and that its vast consciousness will simply recreate his body. (source: SMT wiki, http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Will)
2. It first gets mentioned in the SMT series proper in SMT 2
"As long as people continue to seek my salvation, the will of the universe will recreate me, again and again and again...."-YHVH (source: SMT 2 Law path)
3. SMT 3:Nocturne reveals that the GW created Kagutsuchi to facilitate the death and rebirth of universes and Lucifer wants to make the Demi-fiend his demon champion against the GW, while Metatron is sent by the GW to stop him from succeeding (source: SMT wiki, http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Demi-fiend)
4. It is worshiped in Catholic Churches. (source: SMT wiki, http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Will)
Ambiguous stuff we know about the Great Will or the Axiom,
1. (GW) Known avatars are (put here because of SMT 4) YHVH, Kagutsuchi, Sabaoth, Shaddai, Elohim, Ancient of Days, Metatron and Kuzuryu (source: SMT wiki, http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Will)
2. (GW) The mysterious voice that turns Zayin against YHVH in the IOS remake seems to be describing the Great Will when it says this,
Voice: "Do not try to obey something. Do not try to obey someone. Do not think of God as having just one face. God is not good. God is everything. Everything is God. You too can become a face of God."
(source: translated dialogue from the Fragment of Petrification Prison item in SMT 2's IOS remake provided by SMT Reddit, https://pastebin.com/NrPG6DWP
3. (Axiom) Mastema seems to be working for the Axiom in SMT 4 (source:SMT 4)
Shared traits,
1. Both have been said to behind creation.
2. Both have been said to be the creator of YHVH
3. Both have been described as a sentient cosmic force.
As noted by both Hamburger Time and Omega Radiance not only is the name the Great Reason similar to the Great Will, there are several Japanese terms used to refer to it.
As for the complaint that it is too ambiguous and is described by other characters, instead of directly appearing itself, we have a entry for both Anu and Padomay from The Elder Scrolls and unlike both the Great Will and Reason they haven't done anything in that series recently. (unless you count Sithis)
Edited by TheSwordsman
Of those most of them invluding Kagutsuchi are merely aspects of YHVH himself, so they'd be more accurate to describe as his Bunreis ala Dagda > Odin or Inanna > Danu
Edited by OmegaRadiance Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
So what should the course of action be here? I've mentioned that I'm for just cutting the entry due to too much speculation being involved, but I'd like to hear other suggestions as well.
Again, according to How to Write an Example says "Don't Speculate." If there is no clear connection, we shouldn't assume it to be a fact and write it like a fact on the wiki.
Edited by dragonfire5000
Well the main problem you have is that they can't be the same being because of the similar but different names for it ,right? As Omega Radiance has stated things can be called many names and there are 3 clear connections for sure,
1. Both have been said to behind creation.
2. Both have been said to be the creator of YHVH
3. Both have been described as a sentient cosmic force.
So besides the name is there any other contradictions? It is implied that they are the same being. Just because something isn't explicitly stated doesn't necessarily mean that it is just mere speculation. Dark Souls and it's fellow Souls games particularly run on this type of story telling.
Now for what to do there are three options I can think of, discuss a little more until it looks like we have come to a consensus, a compromise where only the references to the Axiom are removed until we know more about it or notify the original creator and the forum, than take a vote that lasts for a week or two. (though if the vote does come to not having a character entry than the tropes moved from the YHVH folder need to be put back) Personally I think it should stay as not only is the GW/Axiom treated as a character ingame and by the developers but also because there are other entries like this and every other wiki (even the SMT Reddit) treats them as the same. This wiki would be the odd one out
Edited by TheSwordsman
I still say, at the very least, take out the references to the Axiom. Again, we don't trope implications as facts unless there is concrete evidence, usually from Word of God.
I should also mention that there was previously an edit war involving Dark Souls 3 where at troper kept adding information that they felt was "obvious" to one of the character entries. Other tropers pointed out that nothing in the games actually explicitly confirmed said information, and it was eventually decided to leave the information off the character entry. I say that the Axiom should be treated similarly; it should not be lumped together with the Great Will unless there is explicit evidence from the creators' mouth saying otherwise. Especially since, given what Apocalypse mentions about the Axiom, the Axiom has no business being lumped together with the Forces of Law.
By the way, someone recently asked on ATT a question regarding Elder Scrolls that might be relevant. I can't link to the ATT in question, so I'll put the question and Fighteer's answer in quoteboxes:
Then I guess we are going with the compromise?
I bet it was about Gwyn's firstborn in DS 3, wasn't it? The reason it was in the Forces of Law was because going by the GW and Axiom being the same character, the Law faction sees it as their actual leader. (Which is why they act like God is still alive, even when they kill YHVH and why Lucifer sees it as the true enemy in SMT 3) What I find interesting though about the current placement is going by YHVH's actions in SMT 4:A and the Law alignment going against him in some games, YHVH seems to be a more of a neutral figure. He doesn't even have a problem with you going Neutral in Strange Journey.
As for TES all that stuff is from a former writer and doesn't appear in any of the games or backed by still working employees, unlike anything we have discussed about the Great Will today.
Edited by TheSwordsman
To be fair, YHVH is spending most of his time torn to pieces in Strange Journey. After all, the Demiurge is the largest piece of him in that game. I heard that if you let the fusion happen on any route other than Law, he's not so grateful.
So yeah, I still say take out the Axiom at the very least. Again, it has no business belonging in the Law characters section, seeing how it's barely a character at all and not affiliated with Law.
Yeah good point, the Demiurge is actually grateful on Neutral, he just won't join you.
Okay I am glad we could reach a agreement, I'll remove all of the Axiom's details from the Great Will's character folder tomorrow when I get the time.
Edited by TheSwordsman
Is he? It's been a while since I played the game, so I don't really remember that.
Make sure to also remove the Axiom from Shin Megami Tensei in the Forces of Law character list as well. If you plan to keep the Great Will, I recommend doing a comb over to make sure all the tropes added to it are things explicitly mentioned in the games to avoid speculation.
Also keep this in mind: just because it's worshiped by some as a god doesn't make it a god. Take it from a Fire Emblem fan: there are things that aren't gods but are worshiped like them.
Yeah, which is why I originally mentioned SJ.
One more thing since SMT 4 existed before the concept of the Axiom was made by the new writing team what are your thoughts on Mastema? He is clearly working for The Great Will but SMT 4:A retcons a lot of things to fit it's story in and removes Mastema's sub plot.
Well there is a key difference with Naga and the GW, the GW is the original creator and is clearly supposed to some kind of representation of the real life God. I think its safer to say that it isn't your standard SMT demon. (like Odin, Horus, etc.)
Edited by TheSwordsman
Mastema himself made it clear he had no intention of properly getting involved even in the endgame routes of IV unless forced via Law sidequests, and he likely flew the coop since Lucifer destroyed Reverse Hills.
IVA does give some implications but no direct statement that he likely left Nanashi at the Tower as a baby. The untranslated parts of the IVA artbook apparently said he was one of Akira's demons. There's a bunch of short stories including one about Hallelujah and his mom without a translation from it.
Edited by OmegaRadiance Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
^^ Great Will might be some representation of the Christian God. Axiom, on the other hand, isn't like any god at all. It's whatever ranks above the gods.
This discussion thread is getting kind of long though, and since we've come to a resolution on how to handle the Axiom entry, any other discussion can go to the forums.
Edited by dragonfire5000
Final has revealed that YHVH and the Great Will are not the same person,(at least in its own continuity) so should the references to the Great Will be removed from YHVH and a new folder for the Great Will be created? I ask because in other games YHVH and the Great Will are implied to be the same person.
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I think we should wait at least until the game is released in the west.
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Hello again!
Recently I was scouring through Megami Tensei Wiki, in which I stumbled upon this;
https://megamitensei.fandom.com/f/p/4400000000000061143
It’s a fairly crude post, and in some parts a bit assumptive, about how the Great Will isn’t Great Reason/Axiom, but it nevertheless presents the point accurately.
As some tropers here would know, I am one of those who believe the Great Will and the Axiom are interchangeable, and previously on multiple occasions I had gathered as many details as I could to defend that idea; so the post naturally intrigued me.
When I was looking for side materials of SMT on the internet to delve deeper though, I found another post from around a year ago elsewhere:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Ultima_Reality/Megami_Tensei_Cosmology_Blog
While I hold no faith or love for the vsbattles community who carelessly try to cross over multiple works of fiction and try to make tiers of everything, I must say the blog presents the Megami Tensei cosmology comprehensively.
A few points claimed in the blog are indeed assumptive (for an example, the writer interprets the Collective Unconsciousness of Persona and the Great Reason/Axiom are connected and pretty much the same thing due to the analogy used in the conversation between the director and screen writer of IV Apocalypse), but just about everything else the writer posits are pretty much just facts, no assumption or interpretation at all.
Particularly about the Great Will; the writer has convinced me that the Great Will is really just a name used to refer to YHVH. For me, the most convincing evidence comes from Satan in IVA, as he quite explicitly calls YHVH, and Nanashi should he choose to be, “Will of the Universe” (which as discussed in previous threads, is a synonymous title with the Great Will).
With this in mind, I take back my previous stance, and propose to delete Great Will’s folder and add its tropes to YHVH, as if you read what that blog presents about the Great Will, there is NO room for ambiguity that Great Will and Great Reason aren’t the same; YHVH is the Great Will in control of countless universes of SMTIVA continuity, born of humanity’s Observation and once an avatar for Great Reason/Axiom’s intentions.
I will be waiting for your thoughts: if no one objects in a few days, I will be making the appropriate edits to this page and to YHVH’s page.
Edited by Cryocene Don't worry about things. Life is cheap. Hide / Show Replies