Curly Goddess
In regards to this entry:
- Rubber-Forehead Aliens: Imagine a human with yellow (or reddish, or brown) skin, needle-like fangs in their mouth, ridged foreheads, prominent diagonal "strut-like" designs on either side of their mouth, four sets of nostrils, and four eyes. That's basically the design of the batarians. The comics also show that their females have similar sexual dimorphism to humans. This arguably makes them the most human-like species in the setting, as they're basically identical to humans from the neck down.
Emphasis mine on the last part. Aside from the violation of Examples Are Not Arguable, is this even accurate? Batarians may be humanoid "from the neck down" but tha thardly makes them "the most human-like" when the asari are human women except with tentacles instead of hair.
Edited by NubianSatyress
This was removed:
- Laser-Guided Karma: The quarians of the past got hit hard by this. After attempting to commit genocide on the Geth, they were driven to near-extinction by the Geth themselves. Arguably also the case if you side with the Geth during the war in the third game, where they get wiped out completely.
- Geth Prime We regret the deaths of the creators.Shepard They made their choice.
Reason: It doesn't matter what a fallible in-universe character may or may not say. Near-total genocide of an entire race isn't "karma" by any objective definition of the term. And there is no "arguably" here, this isn't a YMMV page.
First off, the first part of the edit reason is flat out wrong. Yes, it does matter what an in-universe character has to say, fallible or not, because we primarily judge tropes in-universe. Tropes do not rely on any sense of absolute morality, and we'd be hard to find such an absolute even if it were. The fact that one version of Shepard finds it laser-guided karma is enough for troping.
Secondly, even without Shepard's statement, the argument that genocide somehow wouldn't be "karma" is somewhat baffling. It's clear that one of the themes of the Morning War is that a societal majority of quarians (meaning those who had the power and/or numbers) tried to inflict a fate on another species that instead happened to them. That's practically the definition of the trope.
They are right about "arguably", though. That needs to go.
Edited by KingZeal Hide / Show Replies
"Wiped out by the people they tried to wipe out" is Laser-Guided Karma. Assuming the same is true of the second half of the example, that's still an example. Honestly, I kind of consider Shepherd's statement irrelevant.
Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
"First off, the first part of the edit reason is flat out wrong. Yes, it does matter what an in-universe character has to say, fallible or not, because we primarily judge tropes in-universe. Tropes do not rely on any sense of absolute morality, and we'd be hard to find such an absolute even if it were. The fact that one version of Shepard finds it laser-guided karma is enough for troping."
So because it is e.g. Renegade Shepard's opinion that the true theme of Mass Effect is Aliens Are Bastards, that should be listed as well? An in-universe character saying anything makes it true? This does not seem like solid logic. For that matter, is listing the geth's demise as Laser-Guided Karma also valid? Honestly that has a far stronger case behind it than the reverse. Practically every character in the game from Shepard to Nice Guy Kaidan to Token Evil Teammate Javik celebrates their destruction and says they had it coming.
"Secondly, even without Shepard's statement, the argument that genocide somehow wouldn't be "karma" is somewhat baffling. It's clear that one of the themes of the Morning War is that a societal majority of quarians (meaning those who had the power and/or numbers) tried to inflict a fate on another species that instead happened to them. That's practically the definition of the trope."
It is not, because it's trying to apply the actions of the military/government to that of an entire society. It was not karma for e.g. the billions of children who also died, or the billions of civilians who were uninvolved in the decision-making process to begin with. Unlike the geth, they're not a Hive Mind. And it is explicit, at least in the ME-3 reignition, that the majority of civilians opposed war to begin with. So, at the very least, it definitely is not valid there.
Edited by MonsieurThenardier "It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
First off, if you want to list the Laser-Guided Karma thing under the Geth folder too, by all means. As I said, you seem a little biased in favour of the Quarians. Listing this trope doesn't necessarily mean we agree to it, it just says as what it is perceived as in-universe. And the fact that innocents got wiped out actually contributes to it, as the Geth (in the past, before allying with the Reapers) were also completely innocent. As I see it, we have 3 in favour of it and 1 against. But as I also said, I would be fine with listing it under Irony too.
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Really though, the subtrope Genocide Backfire should be listed rather than Laser-Guided Karma.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
That works too.
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"First off, if you want to list the Laser-Guided Karma thing under the Geth folder too, by all means"
But that just seems silly. The page would at the same time be saying "billions of innocents being killed is karma for the actions of their government, because their government tried to kill the geth" and "the complete destruction of the geth at the hands of the quarians was karma because of their actions"- in other words saying each faction deserves genocide because they're willing to genocide the other one (and because of spawning and being complicit in the crimes of the Heretics, I guess).
"And the fact that innocents got wiped out actually contributes to it, as the Geth (in the past, before allying with the Reapers) were also completely innocent"
Perhaps at the very start of the conflict, but definitely not by the time any of the games start (not even counting the heretics). But I digress. The definition of that trope is "bad things happen to bad people at opportune times". If it's innocents who are being killed, then it's not karma.
"As I said, you seem a little biased in favour of the Quarians."
Probably (no offense taken btw), but checking your edits on the ME YMMV page you seem quite biased the other way; makes me think you're not exactly making edits like this in good faith.
"Really though, the subtrope Genocide Backfire should be listed rather than Laser-Guided Karma."
That trope would also be far more applicable to the present geth being wiped out than it would the quarians (as the trope description mentions that this is primarily done by a small group of survivors of an original, mostly successful genocide). In fact it's pretty much a perfect fit for the trope description, down to the people wiping out the geth being the downtrodden descendants of the very few survivors out of those originally genocided. So should that trope be added for the geth too, along with Laser-Guided Karma?
EDIT: I'm just gonna go ahead and do that if no one can respond with a problem to it.
Edited by MonsieurThenardier "It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
Seeing as Genocide Backfire is a subtrope of Laserguided Karma, it would be redundant. Just put Genocide Backfire up, like at the Quarian folder, if you will.
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Wereboar
Quarian -> Space Jews. I don't think this is justified. Quarians do not show any traits common to a historical or modern Jew stereotype (good merchants, natural entrepreneurs, highly spiritual and traditional and on the negative side also shrewd, quarrelsome and scheming). They, however, fit the image of 'Space Gypsy' perfectly. They are constantly on the move, live in closely knit groups that has also close ties to others, are self-sufficient and independent when it comes to making decisions with a special council that addresses complex problems. They are also very skilled technicians (until 19th century Romani were renowned blacksmiths and tinkers). On the flipside, Gypsies were often met with suspicion and even hostility, as they were sometimes thought to be scavengers and thieves. So, I think that 'space gypsies' fits Quarians better.
Where was it established that the geth wiped out the ancestor V Is specifically because they were a threat. Near as I can tell, they were effectively just collateral damage.