It is not a perfect solution by any means, but does dividing them into North and South Lands Between suffice? In the game itself, Limgrave and areas immediately reachable from it (Liurnia, Caelid and the underground portions of it) are considered distinct from Altus and its surrounding areas, with the Mountaintops of the Giants in particular explicitly described as being to the North of Marika’s Empire.

In short, the division is from Limgrave to the Lake of Rot (plus Mohgwyn Palace) for Southern Lands Between, while the rest is Northern Lands Between.

Hmm. I guess that could work. Though I wonder how that should be organized with the Recurring Enemies subpage. Make that the main enemy page instead, leave it or something else?

Recurring enemies aren't restricted to any particular location, so I would say leaving it be is alright. Turning it into a main enemy page is also alright since it specifies the Bold rule for Great and Legend enemies. Whichever you like.

I'd say make it the main enemy page. That should be fine.

How about splitting the Siofra River, Ainsel River, Twin Eternal Cities, Lake of Rot, Deeproot Depths and Mohgwyn Palace sections off into a "Subterranean Enemies" page?

I've had a thought of making an 'endgame bosses' page, since those take up quite a chunk. This would include Fire Giant, Maliketh, Placidusax and the Elden Beast, with redirect folders for Godfrey, Malenia and Mohg.

Alternatively an Endgame Areas page, which would include everything post-Leyndell.

The obvious choice IMO would be to split it between Enemies and Bosses.

I mentioned it somewhere down this page, we can list recurring enemies, field and dungeon bosses here, and then the ones tied to specific regions can get their own page.

Yeah. Separating Recurring, Field and Dungeon Enemies sounds good. Though, I do wonder how to handle enemies like the Kaiden Sellswords and Castle Guards, because they show up in the late-game areas for one reason or another, and unlike Trolls and Nobles, they only reoccur twice (the Sellsword guarding one of the Consecrated Snowfield Caravans, and spectral versions of the Castle Guards guard Castle Sol)... Perhaps only those that appear in at least three different regions are considered Recurring? Maybe add a note to this discrepancy?

Strictly speaking "recurring" enemies like Nobles, Peasants etc. are called such because we encounter them countless times all around, with no particular lore ties to any of those areas. Alternatively, they have multiple counterparts (Lordsworn Soldiers and Knights).

However, enemies like Castle Guards only appear and reoccur in specific areas can be considered tied to a "specific" region based on their respective lores. That, in my opinion, would be the key to separating recurring enemies and enemies stuck to a few regions.

Yeah fair. For simplicity's sake, should we combine the Underground Rivers and Eternal Cities under one heading overall? Or for the all of overworld areas and those that Fextralife considers "Legacy Dungeons" and such for the regions they're in?

For example:

Altus Plateau

Leyndell, Royal Capital

I was thinking about a game-progress split, basically have two pages for each "half" of the game, the first being Limgrave, Liurnia and Caelid, and the other being everything in and after Altus. Dunno how that would feel in practice.

The enemies repeat between regions, it doesn't make much sense to sort them by progress or area. I feel the best way to sort them would be by type, like Lordsworn Army, Demihumans, Dragons, Wildlife, Raya Lucaria Mages, Fire Monks, etc.

We're gonna have to decide soon. The page is nearing the word count limit

I think a Great Enemy (the ones with the folder names bolded) page will work as a stopgap for the time being. The page will still be divided by areas in the same way this page currently is.

I am not sure if you are aware, Makir, but most of the bosses under Field and Dungeon Bosses are, in fact, Great Enemies: they were just left unbolded because that would make most of them bolded.

Taking out just the Great Enemies from this page is inefficient since that would leave a few non-Great Enemies who still qualify as Field Bosses (case in point: Erdtree Avatars) while almost every other bosses would have to be moved.

Would you undo this division or still proceed through with a page specifically for Great Enemies?

I understand what you mean, like for example some dragons are considered Great Enemies, but I think a simple enough divider between what the game consider "Great Enemy" variant of a Field Boss and a Great Enemy worthy of being in the other page is how often they're repeated. For example none of the bosses currently in the Great Enemy page is repeated more than two times (Veteran Commanders and Ancestor Spirits), while Dragons and Erdtree avatars are repeated many more times than that.

Ultimately some arbitrary rules will have to be made to avoid this page's bloat of text. The only other way I can imagine this divide being made is to put only bosses with Remembrances in the Great Enemy page, but this would also create problems as, for example, Margit doesn't drop a Remembrance at all, and the Ancestor Spirit and Regal Ancestor Spirit would have to be separated since the former doesn't drop a Remembrance but the latter does.

Did you consider keeping the Recurring Enemies, then the Field and Dungeon Bosses here, then separate everything else which were Region specific into a new page instead? That should divide the word count fairly evenly.

They're not necessarily mutually exclusive options. We can always do that when the page gets too large again.

Fair, but as it stands separating Great Enemies only gives the impression each region has only a few enemies qualifying as Great Enemies, which is absolutely not the case given how many bosses are in each area of the game, and misinformation is a big no-no. Pardon me if I am being pushy, but this needs to be rectified as soon as possible.

I would have done it myself had I actually known the proper steps of deleting a page and creating a new one in its place, which you seem to know. So asking you I what I can do for now.

I'm willing to do it myself, but first I have to be absolutely sure what you think the name of the page should be and which entries you want to place there, and under what criteria.

Ultimately, the goal here is to slim down THIS page, it's just difficult to understand how.

Then shall we get it down?

First, for this page (Elden Ring Enemies and Bosses)

- Name: Elden Ring Enemies and Bosses

- Content: General Recurring Enemies, Field and Dungeon Bosses, Tarnished Invaders

Second, for the new page

- Name: Elden Ring Regional Enemies and Bosses

- Content: Limgrave; Stormveil Castle; Liurnia of the Lakes; Ainsel River; Siofra River; Caelid; Nokron, Eternal City; Lake of Rot; Altus Plateau; Volcano Manor; Deeprot Depths; Leyndell, Royal Capital; Mountaintops of the Giants; Crumbling Farum Azula; Elden Throne

Roughly like this.

Here's my problem with this: This isn't Dark Souls, in which each area would have their own unique pool of enemies with some exceptions, and thus classifying them by 'regions' makes much more sense.

This doesn't happen in Elden Ring, in which enemies are reused several times in multiple, highly distinct zones.

By calling them "Regional Enemies" you're implying that they can ONLY be found in that particular zone, which is honestly double as bad in terms of misinformation as the claim about Great Enemies. The Kaiden Sellswords would likely be considered Limgrave's 'regional enemies', despite appearing also in the Consecrated Snowfield.

It's not a good solution, and feels a bit clunky and just as arbitrary in terms requirements. You might as well have "Enemies and Bosses Part 1" and "Enemies and Bosses Part 2".

I think, at this point, that the Great Enemies page should still remain, but to specify to indicate that the bosses either have major cutscenes (like Margit) or drop Remebrances to separate them from field bosses "Great Enemies" that have neither (which would mean returning the Veteran Commanders and Royal Knight Loretta to this page.)

Plus, specifically having a page for major bosses that aren't demigods makes reading and editing those entries much easier, and they're also bound to have much more text for each entry compared to a normal enemy.

You have not been paying attention to how the enemies in those regions have been placed by previous tropers, have you? We have discussed this specific topic before, in this very thread.

Shadeblade 11: I do wonder how to handle enemies like the Kaiden Sellswords and Castle Guards, because they show up in the late-game areas for one reason or another, and unlike Trolls and Nobles, they only reoccur twice (the Sellsword guarding one of the Consecrated Snowfield Caravans, and spectral versions of the Castle Guards guard Castle Sol)... Perhaps only those that appear in at least three different regions are considered Recurring? Maybe add a note to this discrepancy?

Me: Strictly speaking "recurring" enemies like Nobles, Peasants etc. are called such because we encounter them countless times all around, with no particular lore ties to any of those areas. Alternatively, they have multiple counterparts (Lordsworn Soldiers and Knights). However, enemies like Castle Guards only appear and reoccur in specific areas can be considered tied to a "specific" region based on their respective lores. That, in my opinion, would be the key to separating recurring enemies and enemies stuck to a few regions.

In other words, the key to differentiating recurring and region specific enemies fall to their lore. Region specific enemies typically almost always have lore reasons explaining why they are encountered there, while recurring ones don’t or have many counterparts all over the place (Lordsworn Soldiers and Knights, for example).

Enemies in Consencrated Snowfield are generally reskins of previously encountered enemies, but some still come with specific lore ties explaining why they are there (Albinaurics for example are all trying to reach it as their promised land).

Do you have any particular issue against this? Because most enemies placed by tropers before us in the specific regions ARE, in fact, tied lorewise to the areas where they are encountered.

If you really want to get rid of the Great Enemies page in its entirety (and I've yet seen a good reason why), then I suggest a compromise: instead of creating a "Regional Enemies and Bosses" page and leave this just for recurring enemies and field bosses, doesn't it make more sense to do the opposite?

Elden Ring Enemy and Bosses:Limgrave; Stormveil Castle; Liurnia of the Lakes; Ainsel River; Siofra River; Caelid; Nokron, Eternal City; Lake of Rot; Altus Plateau; Volcano Manor; Deeprot Depths; Leyndell, Royal Capital; Mountaintops of the Giants; Crumbling Farum Azula; Elden Throne

Elden Ring Recurring Enemies and Bosses: General Recurring Enemies, Field and Dungeon Bosses, Tarnished Invaders.

It just doesn't make sense to me to create an entirely new page to move what is basically a good 70% of the page only to leave the recurring enemies and field bosses in here. The purpose of this discussion is to slim down the page, not change its entire focus, and the focus of this page should be to list every enemy and boss in an area-by-area basis.

Apologies for being late in response. After waking up, it purifies the mind. Allows me to see what I couldn’t before.

That should be alright. After being divided that way, the "bolding Great Enemies" rule can then be applied to both this and the new page.

All right, I'll get to it at some point in the near future.

Makir, are you going to follow up on this and make the overhaul soon?

Since he's not responding, I'll try to make the overhaul in his steed.

Why not divide it between "Enemies and Bosses" and "Major Bosses" as a subpage? The game conveniently gives us a distinguishing list with the achievements and trophies. Non-demigod major bosses (including variations/clones) would be:

Malekith, Placidusax, Fortissax/Lansseax, Rennala, Godskin Apostles, Godskin Nobles, Fire Giant, Dragonkin Soldiers, Ancestor Spirits, Valiant Gargoyles/Black Blade Kindred, Red Wolves of Radagon/the Champion, Magma Wyrms, Mimic Tears, Loretta, Astels, Elemer of the Briar/Bell-Bearing Hunter, Margit, and Commander Niall/O'Neil.

Should throw in the Elden Beast as well since, while there's TECHNICALLY not an achievement specifically for beating him, there are for every ending (which is basically the same thing as he is the final boss of every route) and he drops a Remembrance. Then there'd be redirects for the demigods with an achievement tied to them, namely:

Godrick, Radahn, Rykard, Morgott, Mohg, Mohg (Omen), Godfrey (shade), Hoarah Loux, Malenia, Radagon.

Yeah, but what should I do about the Mimic Tear?

EDIT: I forgot to add about this, but what about Elemer of the Briar? Isn't his true name a big spoiler?

(I just forgot I can edit post. Ignore this.)

I don't think this game could even be said to have spoilers, as thin as the story is, but I especially can't see how the Bell-Bearing Hunter's name could be a spoiler. His identity is never built up as a mystery and the name "Elemer" never shows up outside of that fight.

Lansseax is pretty much a move set clone of Fortissax so she should probably be on the page as well for the same reason that O'Neill would be on the page along with Niall, and Theodorix on it along with Makar.

I'd also say that a single boss that doesn't have an achievement tied to it should also be here: the Fallingstar Beast. It's odd that it doesn't have one but it fits every other criteria for a major boss. Unique model and move set, very strong, is never fought without a boss health bar, and only shows up three times in the entire game.

I think it'd be better to just sepparate into General Enemies and Area Specific Enemies pages

The Divine Being would also have the Outer Gods characters, Marika and the fingers etc.

Second vote for making a Divine Beings page.

I think having a specific page for everything to do with the Outer Gods and their minions would make their importance to the story more clear.

I personally support it. But one thing to clarify is; would the demigods be included under the Divine Beings page? I think their should be, given their Semi-Divine status, and the fact they are the central points of the game, in gameplay and in story.

Sure.

Trying to categorize by area does seem pointless, many enemies and even some bosses show up in multiple regions.

We can go even further and simply split them into separate pages: we list enemies and bosses which aren't restricted to one specific area here, and then the ones which are tied to specific areas get their own page.

Hum... that's fair, but putting aside Placidussax, Astel and Fortissax can only be fought very late in the game and near the tail end of the quest lines which unlock alternate endings; it's practically impossible to trope them without making them walls of white. Especially because understanding their plot relevance requires one to more or less know about the truth of Godwyn's death (for Fortissax) and the secrets of Ranni (for Astel). We wouldn't want that, would we?

I'm tempted to suggest just going Spoilers Off if half the page is going to be this way.

Normally I wouldn’t mind that either, but one of Elden Ring’s (and any From Soft game) main way of story telling is foreshadowing - if we go Spoilers Off then even just reading, say, Margit’s folder would spoil that he is actually a variant of a late game boss very relevant to the plot, and one of the demigods themselves. That’s like a kick to the face for readers who just want to read early game character tropes while ignoring late game.

I suggest we keep going unmarking spoilers for only late game enemies and bosses closely tied to the game’s Driving Question (theft of the Rune of Death and Elden Ring’s Shattering), late game revelations (the fact Erdtree is rejecting anyone and anything from becoming 3rd Elden Ring), any boss which are closely tied to the alternate endings (Fortissax, Astel), and of course, the Final Boss.

This means of the current folders with Unmarked Spoilers, we can mark the Fire Giant and Dragonlord Placidusax with spoilers, given Fire Giant isn’t exactly relevant to the present day problems (he is only the last remnant of a race defeated by Queen Marika and her brood) and the Dragonlord being the Elden Lord of an era before Marika also isn’t very relevant to the main story.

After thinking about it, I propose instead of giving the folder titles big bold UNMARKED SPOILERS, the Walking Spoiler characters are given extra description before troping: something like "This character is a Walking Spoiler, so be warned."

Any other suggestions or objections?