Gun Porn!

I have a sneaky feeling this is also tied to the Marines obsession with the SOST ammo.

Which ones are those?

The questionably legal open tipped ones with a solid penetrator at the base. The Mk 318 Mod 0 AKA brown tips. There is also another stupid USMC/Army feud over equipment and ammo going on...again.

Basically instead of a true full metal jacket covering it leaves the tip open the interior is small lead core sitting on top of a copper base.

edited 31st Jul '15 4:48:41 PM by TuefelHundenIV

As Tuffel said, they can be tasty tasty critters, if a bit lean. I've heard the taste is chickeny-rabbity.

And fuck armadillos, they kept killing my hens and killed my cat while my mother and step-father still owned a ranch.

Like the M 885 A 1? There is no reason at all for not adopting it already on both branches.

^ With the whole ammo thing, the Marines are acting like spoiled children. They don't want to share with Army. Plus given how A1 ammo is all ONNOMNOMWALLS in Army shoothouses and ranges, it makes me wonder if Marine equivalents are of even lesser construction if they don't want it.

edited 31st Jul '15 5:19:45 PM by MajorTom

It's always kinda been that way to be honest.

^ And Marines usually lose when their whinyness gets on the nerves of Congresscritters or Presidents.

Part of the reason for the Marines to adopt the SOST is kind of multi-part. First the overall design is already proven in that it is very similar to a big game hunting round manufactured by Federal. I think it was big claw or bear claw bonded ammo or something like it. Second similar ammo already sees some use with snipers and des. marks. Third at the time of initial adoption the new M855A1 round had some issues with its design largely based around its balance and accuracy. However the round was re-worked in a few short months. There is a fourth point but it like the last one it has become completely moot. Initially because of delayed ILRP runs of the new ammo it was more expensive per round then SOST which had a small head start because of use with SOCOM. However once it was put into full production the A1 cartridge became cheaper.

There was all sorts of dust ups all over internet including Guns and Ammo. That one was interesting to read because apparently one of the key participants of the discussion worked directly for one of the ammo manufacturers and the big guy on the other side knew military procurement and budgeting inside and out. The budget guy showed the publicly available data for the full production run cost of the new A1 and it was actually cheaper by several cents then the SOST ammo.

All in all both rounds work and will kill what they hit in general. The SOST would be the kind of round you shoot at soft or unarmored targets. The A1 is something you want to use if you need to penetrate a barrier, body armor, or vehicle body. Both rounds are reportedly rather accurate and have several qualities comparable to match grade ammo. Really both services are doing a bit of pointless dick swinging as both rounds can easily be used side by side or in the field for their various purposes.

Going against insurgents and others who typically wear very light or no body armor? SOST is your friend. Going against troops in body armor or you need to shoot up vehicles with small arms? A1 for the win.

The A1 now yaws more after penetrating tissue compared the 855 which at short range tended to punch clean through. The SOST expands "fragments" in soft tissue with a high degree of reliability and backed by the solid copper rear portion has good momentum.

edited 31st Jul '15 7:40:33 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Given the emergence of "hybrid warfare" using both asymmetric and symmetric tactics in Ukraine and the Middle East, two separate ammunition lines like that may prove logistically unfeasible. One of them's gonna have to give in the long run. (And SOST can be argued as in violation of the Hague Convention despite the US non-signatory status.)

Put it this way, in a hybrid warfare scenario if you equip the Marines with SOST and suddenly the "insurgents" start pulling armored jeeps and tanks out of their arses and utilize hard cover, body armor and much more sophisticated and modern infantry tactics, it's safe to say those SOST equipped Marines better yield defeat and fall back since they'll be outgunned.

And given how ISIS and the RGF "The People's Republic Of Donbass" have been utilizing such things, the future of SOST seems a lot shorter than M855A1.

Now now, most of the time it really is the People's Republic of Donbass, albeit with Russia's shiniest leftovers.

Plainclothes RGF guys only get involved when they start seriously losing and even then they pull out immediately afterwards.

Anyone keeping an eye on the really, really modernized AK-74Ms lately?

Which ones? I've seen a few floating around here and there.

The ones officially done by Kalashnikov Concern with railed receivers on it. I've seen photos of them recently at the recent Victory Parade.

edited 31st Jul '15 11:28:54 PM by Ominae

Oh...I haven't actually checked anything done by Kalashnikov Concern. I've been hunting around liveleak and places looking glimpses of them in Crimea or something.

I feel kinda dumb now.

Tom; Not really. Considering there is no problem keeping up way more then two types of ammo in the same caliber to begin with. Like tracers, AP, and ball. It really isn't even a hurdle at this point.

All the fuss over ammo, the big problem is buying in lots and getting it to the infantry who need it. There is a "not invented here" problem that's Up To Eleven in TACOM and it's small arms office.

TACOM (TAnk and Automotive COMmand) also gets small arms. They when ape when units ordered Magpul PMAG's (plastic magazines). At one point they did attempt a ban on unit's ordering them until they had to face reality. Older PMAG's did have NSN's and were in the army supply chain. Not helping the case is that the "new and improved" mags were made by Brownells, a competator to Magpul.

After a quiet retraction, units could order PMAG's and the newer improved mags as well.

According to The Other Wiki:

In July 2010, the Marines purchased 1.8 million M 855 A 1 Enhanced Performance Rounds, in addition to millions of Mk318 rounds in service, as part of its effort to replace its M855 ammo.[102] As of May 2015, Marine combat units still deploy with a mixture of both SOST and M855 rounds.

And yes the USMC even has a lead free "green" version of the SOST round.

Why doesn't the Army use the SOST? I'm guessing that the M855's bad performace against barriers is to blame. Even as far back as Vietnam, most people on the other side of the M-16 knew that the 5.56 could be stopped by things that wouldn't stop the 7.62.

And if you have to stop a car or truck, hit someone inside a car or truck, you need a "barrier blind" round.

The way SOST is being talked about, you'd think it's the standard issue variant above and over any other version of 5.56mm. Meaning AP, tracer, blank, and even regular ball ammo are produced and used in nowhere near the same quantity as SOST.

That's the implication anyways.

It is as Taira just showed us one of two rounds the USMC is overtly using replace the old "heavy ball" ammo aka [M855].

Today I learned about the existence of an American double barreled FAL made by Winchester.

Made under the SALVO project in the 1950s

It sure was a thing that happened.

Ah the Cold War, everything was on the table. After World War Two, most military planners figured that everything was going to change. Now in aviation it did, armor changed and missiles took off.

But the rifle and the pistol didn't change that much. The M2 outlived all the attempts to replace it, the SMG had a [pun burst]] of popularity with frontline forces and then became a tool of special forces. Underbarrel grenade launchers replaced the single shot stand along ones (until the rotary launchers were perfected). Plastics, optics, rails and a few new alloys entered the picture.

But if you did find a "Captain Steve Rogers" frozen in ice since WWII, if you put him on a rifle range he'd be at home....

Eh the UBGL's are still very widely used the Multi-Shots are not as common.

Hell, don't some places also still use rifle grenades?

yes. They have some pluses to them an easier to manufacture is one of them.

The M73 Tank Gun...Or How NOT To Make An MG For Tankers.