The Art of War: The Liveblog

^That

^This

The Art Of War: Chapter X continued.

Just for the record, I am reading this with music performed by The Screamer as soundtrack. I think this will make it even more awesome.

Another list? In the same chapter? Come on, now the gimmick's starting to feel overused.

13-14. Six things that can go to hell that are all YOUR FAULT.

• Hiring French soldiers. (Flight)
• Talking back when you tell them to eat their veggies. (Insubordination)
• Being a pussy. (collapse)
• ruin
• disorginization
• rout

All right. There's something definitely wrong with that list. What is ruin supposed to mean? It's kind of general. What's the difference between rout and flight? It sounds like he's just throwing random stuff out there.

15. If you fight someone ten times bigger than you, your soldiers will probably run away.

16. Willful soldiers + weak commanders = Insubordination. Weak soldiers + willful commanders = collapse.

17. If your men hate you then they'll go attack the enemy prematurely just to piss you off. The commentator says it ACTUALLY means "If you're angry for no reason, and you don't appreciate your officers, then they'll hate you and everything will go down the crapper.

18. If the general is wishy-washy, and nobody knows who's supposed to do what, then everything will be DUN DUN DUN. DISORGANIZED.

19. If you allow your guys to go up against a superior force the result will be rout. Yeah. I'm still not seeing the difference between rout and flight.

21. The terrain is your best ally, but being able to estimate your adversary, of controlling the forces of victory, and being able to calculate danger, distance, and difficulty, is what makes a good general.

22. If you know that, and use it, you'll win. If you don't, and don't, you'll lose.

23. The ability to win is more important than the commander in chief's stupid orders. If you can win, fight, if you can't, don't. I'm sure that's a good way to get fired though.

24. Generals who think about glory and disgrace are stupid. They SHOULD be thinking about protecting their country.

I'm gonna quote the next one word for word, 'cause I think it's important.

25. Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys; look upon them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death.

26. You can't be TOO easy on them though, otherwise you'll spoil them and they'll be useless.

The commentary relates a story out a general who ordered that nothing be stolen from a town they'd taken. An officer who lived in that town took a hat from somebody anyways, so the general had him executed.

Times sure were tough back then weren't they?

27. If you know your guys are ready to attack, but don't know the enemy is ready to BE attacked, you've only done half your work.

28. If you know the enemy can be attacked, but don't know the condition of your own men you've only done half your work. And you're a freaking dumbass.

29. If you know your guys can attack, and the enemy can be attacked, but don't know anything about the ground in between, you've only done half your work.

31. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, your victory will not stand in doubt; if you know Heaven and know Earth, you may make your victory complete.

End of Chapter X

I think a rout is more disasterous than flight; flight is simply fleeing the field of battle possibly in a semi-organised manner, while a rout leads to a complete loss of control over whichever units routed, possibly getting gunned down by any pursuing enemies. Basically, a rout is more panicked and chaotic. A unit in flight can be rallied; a routed unit is as good as dead.

I think flight in this case may refer to deserters who run before the fight has even begun. Routing generally refers to disorganised retreat in the face of the enemy.

My two translations seem a little different. Here's what I have:

Griffith: Flee
Ames: Flight
Interpretation (De Marquis): When you attack a larger force

Griffith: Insubordinate
Ames: Insubordinate
Interpretation: When troops are stronger than their officers

Griffith: Distressed
Ames: Deterioration
Interpretation: When officers are stronger than their troops

Griffith: Collapse
Ames: Ruin
Interpretation: When you attack in anger (not out of calculation)

Griffith: Disorder
Ames: Chaos
Interpretation: When the commander gives weak directions

Griffith: Rout
Ames: Rout
Interpretation: Seems the same as Flee/Flight

edited 18th Sep '10 10:06:23 AM by DeMarquis

So rout is flee, but more so?

edited 18th Sep '10 10:29:31 AM by CDRW

Sort of, but as I said I feel a rout is more debilitating than flight. A routed unit has been shattered to its core and is unlikely to ever be viable again; a fleeing unit will probably be of some use if you can rally them.

Ok, I guess that makes sense. It's still too close for comfort to sit easy on my mind though. Kind of like Idiot Ball and Plot Induced Stupidity.

On a side note, this liveblog is moving along a lot quicker now after the timeskip. Any suggestions on what I should do after finishing this one? I was thinking an anime, maybe Legend Of The Galactic Heroes, but that's really long. I'm open to any ideas.

I offer you no specific things, but here's some food for thought:

• What about a series you enjoy? It should show through in your writing, making it better all-around.
• A series with plenty of things to mock. If done well, it will generally be pretty humourous.

Akira would be awesome.

^^ I would love to do something I like, but I also want to do something I've never seen before. I don't see much point in liveblogging that which I already know. My reactions are spent.

The problem is trying to figure out what shows I'd like beforehand, a difficult task for anyone, but even moreso for someone like me. For example, I hate magical girl shows, but my favorite show of all time is...a magical girl show.

^ Unfortunately, I've already seen Akira. Here's my anime list if you're interested. http://myanimelist.net/animelist/CDRW

Boku No Pico.

edited 18th Sep '10 12:20:48 PM by jaimeastorga2000

I believe an Osakaface is in order here.

Ever read Dave Sim's Cerberus?

I haven't. Is it available online? And is it good?

Short one today.

Chapter XI: The Nine Situations.

Another List. =_=

Nine types of ground.

Didn't we just cover this? Up until now the book came across as extremely well organized, but the last chapter and now this are making me doubt.

1. Sun Tzu said: The art of war recognizes nine varieties of ground: (1) Dispersive ground; (2) facile ground; (3) contentious ground;(4) open ground; (5) ground of intersecting highways;(6) serious ground; (7) difficult ground; (8) hemmed-in ground;(9) desperate ground.

No seriously, I'm starting to get ticked off about this. These aren't comprehensive or even at the same level. I'm pretty sure some of these count as sub-categories of others. And I don't even know what half of them mean. "Facile ground?"

2. Dispersive ground is home-turf advantage, except by "advantage" we mean "deserters."

3. A short distance into the other guy's turf is facile ground. Because you can still retreat. The commentators suggest burning your boats at this point. I for one am not a fan of burning your boats before they hatch.

4. Ground that's important to control is contentious ground. Strategic targets.

5. Ground where both sides can move easily is open ground. Duh.

Well, you'll just have to burn that boat when you get to it.

To make things a little easier, I offer De Marquis' handy-dandy summary of the types of ground from the Art of War. If my version seems different from yours, it's because I'm using a different translation:

Chapter 8
Low Lying: Do not encamp here
Communicating: Unite with allies
Desolate: Do not linger
Enclosed: Be resourceful

Chapter 9
Mountains: encamp high and sunny. Stay near passes. Attack downhill
Rivers: entice enemy halfway across, then attack
Salt Marshes: Do not linger here. Put trees to your rear. Water on flanks?
Level Ground: Keep heights to your rear

Chapter 10
Accessible: Both sides are highly mobile. Move fast
Entrapping: Difficult to return to
Indecisive: Equally disadvantageous to both. Force him to make first move
Constricted: Enclosed area easy to defend. You want to be attacked here
Percipitous: Defend here. Do not attack, lure him away from it
Distant: Far from the enemy. Attacking him isn’t worth it

Chapter 11
Dispersive: One’s own territory. Do not fight here. Unify determination of own forces
Frontier: A shallow penetration. Do not stop here. Keep forces closely linked
Key: Equally advantageous. Do not attack if occupied. Attack his rear instead
Communicating: Equally accessible. Press on, press on
Focal: Strategically located. Seek allies, strengthen alliances
Serious: Deep penetration. Use local supply. Ensure flow of provisions
Difficult: Going is difficult. Ensure defenses, do not separate formations
Encircled: Access is constricted. Devise strategems. Block passes
Death: Fight desperately. Fight to the death

edited 19th Sep '10 9:32:13 AM by DeMarquis

Hello? Did we give up?

CDRW might be busy right now or something.

I'm sorry about not making any posts recently. The last couple of days my browser has been crashing whenever I access tvtropes for even just a few minutes. Hopefully this post actually gets through, it's been kind of spotty even when the site doesn't crash.

Receivin' you loud and clear!

All right, let's see if this works.

The Art Of War Chapter 11 continued.

6. Ground that lets you control the most ground if you get it first is intersecting highways. I wonder if that extends to naval operations. Would New York Harbor count as intersecting high ways?

7. When you penetrate a long ways into enemy territory and you leave fortified cities behind you, you're screwed. That brings up a question though. Sun Tzu is against attacking fortified cities, but obviously the island hopping tactic doesn't work that well in these kinds of situations, so what do you do?

8. Difficult ground is difficult ground.

9. Hemmed in ground is hemmed in ground.

10. Desperate ground is hemmed in ground where running away is no longer an option.

15. Back in the day, skillful leaders followed the tried and true "divide and conquer" tactic.

16. If the enemy's men managed to stay united they kept them in disorder.

17. If they could profit, they moved, if not, they didn't.

Ground that lets you control the most ground if you get it first is intersecting highways. I wonder if that extends to naval operations. Would New York Harbor count as intersecting high ways?

Any major port would count, as would any airfield, as it would allow you to project power a long way.

7. When you penetrate a long ways into enemy territory and you leave fortified cities behind you, you're screwed. That brings up a question though. Sun Tzu is against attacking fortified cities, but obviously the island hopping tactic doesn't work that well in these kinds of situations, so what do you do?

I'm guessing that if you must leave these cities behind, at least smash them to pieces first. It's by no means a perfect answer, but it's good enough.