humans are bastards, at least to me

Don't get me wrong, anyone is capable of being a bastard if they were given our level of sentience, but I've always had this...ever present fear (as obsessive neurotics are wont to have) that if humanity were given the choice of using "powered by a forsaken child" to solve a current problem or energy crises, we would probably come up with the justification of why we didn't do it sooner. One of the best examples you can find in human disregard for others' lives is the corporations and industries that employ ethically questionable tactics to boost profits. In many second and third income countries, the racialization and genderization of labor has led employers to hire an all female work force based on the assumption their more docile than male workers. This reasoning also means their less likely to complain about working conditions, injuries, or less wages than male workers. And then there's rape. Almost every good book will prohibit rape as morally wrong, but that hasn't stopped us humans from engaging in it anyway, have we? I'm sorry if i'm ranting here, but what I am trying to say is that if humanity found something that could potentially endanger or ruin the lives of other people, I guarantee that one sick fuck will go through with it if the 'ends justifies the means'. For example, in that novel, "The House of The Scorpion", ruthless drug cartels use cloned humans to extend their lives and implant chips in immigrant or unruly humans to turn them into mindless workers. I know it's just fiction here, but I fear that if something like this were made manifest in reality, it would become a phenomenon no different from today's child slave force or sex slave ring - just because something is regarded as sinful doesn't mean it won't be done....

Corporations are simple enough to explain—everyone except the highest-ranking individual gets to say "the guy above me told me to do it," and even he can get off if he's responsible to shareholders. "One sick fuck" is just that, one sick fuck, no more and no less, and doesn't prove anything about humans. (I think that also applies to rape, since the vast majority of people are not rapists.) And besides, you're not a bastard, and you're a human, right?

No I don't THINK i'm a bastard (but who knows?) I just think that once something becomes attainable, there's no way to not ignore it, whether good or bad (but to this troper, mostly bad)

That's liberal capitalism for ya. Actually, most humans are flawed, but those that are bastards always come out on top due to their sheer selfishness and ruthlessness. The more power they have, the more damage they make.

I do think that Humans Are Bastards in general, myself included. That doesn't mean that decent humans do not exist - if they didn't, then there would be no point in considering the rest bastards.

Functionalist Response - Deviance is a natural outgrowth of our values, norms, and structure of society. Society places high value on certain goals, such as economic success, but not everyone has access to legitimate means to achieve this. For example, one may have an inadequate education due to where they were born that prevents them from meeting the requirements of the job. Regardless, they are expected by society to meet expectations and will be shunned if they fail.

With this conflict between goals and means, the individual falls into a state of confusion. The norms of society become unclear or are no longer applicable. Without proper guidelines for behavior, a rift occurs and the individual commits crime.

Conflict Theorist's Response- Due to social inequality, crime occurs. Society is a constant battle between those who have power, the ruling class, and those who do not, the lower class. People commit deviant acts for one of two reasons. Either they seek to maintain their social position or wish to fight against a feeling of powerlessness.

The ruling class defines crime as any act that threatens their social position. The lower classes have a limited number of avenues to find opportunities so they will often be forced to commit crimes to survive. As for the second reason, restraints created by the ruling class force one into a position of despair. In an attempt to find some meaning in their life, they commit criminal acts.

Down with ruling elite! Let us institute a classless society!

Vive la Revolucion!

Interactionist Response - There are three major explanations for crime. First, people are bound by social ties, such as family, friends, careers, etc. Most do not commit criminal acts because they are integrated into a community and will be adversely affected if something happens to damage the group. Thus, when one has weak ties to the community they commit criminal acts as they are less likely to be harmed. There are little to no repercussions for their actions should they misbehave. Communities in which most members have strong bonds with the community experience lower crime rates and are able to exert more control over those who deviate from the norm. Those who conform have no desire or time to act against the establishment.

Second, deviant acts may be a learned behavior and is taught in much the same way that most other skills- through interaction with others. When one interacts with another individual who commits criminal acts, that behavior is learned. If a majority of a person's interactions are with criminal individuals, the person is likely to be socialized into the patterns of deviant behavior. Conversely, if an individual chooses to associate with individuals who primarily conform with society, that person is more likely to conform.

Finally, if one is labelled a criminal they are likely to commit criminal acts. Individuals become criminals when they are judged by society as criminals. This can happen for any number of reasons, whether it be how an individual presents himself or a previously committed deed. Following this degradation ceremony, people begin to respond to any act done by the individual in relation to their new identity. When one is known by society as a criminal, there is less motivation to do good. They are encouraged to misbehave to fit the role they have been given. Thus, the label of deviant becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Honestly, I think that human beings are naturally moral creatures and if given the opportunity will do the right thing. Yes, there is a small minority who commit terrible deeds but ultimately they do not represent humanity as a whole. This world is so wonderful, and if we work together we as a species can strive to meet our full potential.

edited 20th Nov '10 12:00:18 PM by Pentadragon

That was a pretty good deconstruction. I'd just like to say that sacrifice and responsibility are easy when there's someone else you can lay them on.

When I say that humans are bastards, I do not mean individual criminals. What I've meant are perfectly normal people acting in agreement with social norms when those norms are...off. Things like peer pressure can easily make even a decent person to behave like bastard in right circumstances. Also, diffusion of responsibility, willingness to defer to authority even when authority issues an order to commit something horrible, limited empathy to those outside our own little comfortable circle, a natural tendency to to form groups and have different norms of behaviour toward in-group and out-group...

Thing is, all of this is not a deviancy of an individual member. It is normal human behaviour, something we are wired to do. In fact, it is a deviancy to still manage to do the right thing despite social pressure. But it is possible, that's why those who give in are bastards. Including me.

I hate people. Not every single person individually, but collectively. People as a whole just suck.

Every problem in the world, be it unemployment, government deficit and corruption, poverty, war, pollution, crime, prejudice, greed... I can't help but trace it all back to the inborn traits of our loathsome species. Deep down, don't we all carry some horrible potential, a potential amplified by influence when you have it? And who's to say that they wouldn't develop an equally-atrocious side if they were to rise to power themselves?

All I need is a few words on one of the above subjects, and I plunge into an all-day depression, thinking about how rotten people are and how there's no way to change it. I can't believe anything else. I can never whole-heartedly speak the words, "people are naturally good." Doing that would be like trying to believe in Santa Claus again- as much as I would like to, and as simple as it makes everything, I know it's just childish and a sign of a fucking idiot.

But it also is a sign of joy and happiness, and innocense of childhood. All have done wrong. We have all commited wrong doings. But there is happiness.

I do not view humanity as being bastards as a whole. Seeing as we have nothing to compare ourselves with. Seeing as we are a relatively young species, I believe we are doing excellently as far as morality in the last decade or so. Seeing as technology flourished around the 20th century. Seeing as most members of our species can live up to 70-80 years old. Sure we fuck up but everyone is capable of redemption.

... I interpreted the title as "Humans Are Bastards, at least to me personally"?

Thought I was gonna hafta comfort the OP.

I don't believe that, at our very core, humans are bastards. If that were true, we would have killed each other off a long time ago.

Now that I think about it, the way I react to "humans are bastards" is exactly the same as the way I react to "men are jerks" or "white people are racist." I can't dispute that I'm human, so I feel obligated to argue that I'm not that bad.

Why was this necroed after nearly a year? We have a newer thread on just this subject.

Anyway, if everyone were bastards, then why would we have folks like MLK JR?

By notion humanity is of a Morality Kitchen Sink at core. We commite vice and virtue. Humans exist on all sides of the morality spectrum. Such the notion of which we are.

I think that Humans Are Bastards because I look at how humans are, and how humans could (and should) be, and the gulf between those is enormous. Humanity used to have genuine scarcity as an excuse for problems; there was a struggle to survive for reasons beyond our control. Now, though, pretty much all of humanity's problems are the fault of people's greed, willful ignorance, tribalism, racism, spite, and fanaticism.

Take world hunger as an example. Roughly one billion people are malnourished, despite the fact that more than enough food is produced to feed everyone. Why? A variety of factors: Rich countries are too greedy or nationalistic to devote a decent portion of their resources to improving countless lives that happen to be far away; wars, started for invariably stupid reasons, destroy existing resources and devastate whole populations; corrupt governments steal from their people, often staying in power by pitting class or ethnic groups against each other; and ordinary people pretend that nothing is wrong if they're doing alright themselves at the moment. Need I go on?

Or, consider this: Suppose a typical human were given the opportunity to extend their life by one year in exchange for a random stranger in another country immediately dying. How many people would take that opportunity? (A whole lot more than would admit to it, that's for sure.)

To quote John Stuart Mill, "No great improvements in the lot of mankind are possible until a great change takes place in the fundamental constitution of their modes of thought." Or, roughly paraphrased: humanity, You Suck!

Compared to other animals, we're rather saintly, so I'd say "no". We can be selfish, but that's just nature. The fact that we can be altruistic is what's amazing.

Exactly. Humans are bastards compared to what, exactly?

I'm unclear on what your point is, though. I'm not sure you're using the trope Humans Are Bastards in a literal sense, because then you're argument, if you're making one, makes no sense.

^ Who, me? I'm just saying that our "negative" qualities aren't anything unique to us, so a condemnation of us is a condemnation of pretty much all life.

edited 31st Oct '11 6:47:37 PM by RTaco

I'm building on that. Sure, you can say Humans Are Bastards all you like. The fact is, though, that there isn't any comparison to make, which makes the idea that humans are objectively bastards pretty ridiculous.

I think Humans are Bastards, but I kind of like it that way. It's a great and terrifying part of our nature, exciting, even.

I've never understood how a person who has interacted with more than three or four humans could think that any one generalization can apply to the entire species.

Individual humans are rarely bastards in general, but humanity in general is often bastardly.

And humanity in general is often not bastardly.

You can't say that because it rains sometimes, dry weather doesn't exist.

edited 31st Oct '11 8:52:25 PM by INUH