Pathogen: The Infected

I figured the ease of the virus's spread is hidnered by the fact that it just doesn't... grab most people! Most people are sick for maybe a month, then shake it off, only the unlucky fall into ATP Zombies and the more lucky are Infected. Animals tend to go Chimera though. I'm kind of lost with what you're saying, I'm asking what our Basic Splat is? Our X, I suppose? If X is first thing we have, Y is 'Political/Philosophical', and our Z is 'Entitlement/Strain'. Though I think that we want to keep the Infected more... city based, you know? I feel that a single area is something we want to work with more and avoid stepping on Promethean's toes.

Oh and also! Wouldn't Parasite Power be fun to use as the pool for the 'Reactions'?

edited 18th Nov '11 3:39:29 PM by NightmareWork

In reverse order because they are easier to answer that way:

Whatever you feel like doing with it. I'm not even sure of including it, I haven't made it into a proper mechanic yet, but if you like it, run with it.

Technically we step on Vampire's toes even more that way, but sure, that's what I was thinking too. But if growing infectivity and disfigurements eventually forces infected to hide and wander, that's still in tone with the setting, and QUITE different from Pilgrimages and what they represent.

If you must go with something, just go with the original. But there are so many possibilities, I don't feel like pinning them down that much. Splats are basically, well, adjustments to the core rules, so that everyone can play them in their own style. If it turns out that the Infected you want to play is very different from my infected, the easiest way to resolve it is to make the two types two different splats. Vampire did the same.

(This is an ubrelated note, but did anyone read "RPG Design Patterns" by Whitson John Kirk? I had it lying around in a .pdf and found it very enlightening on the subject of what game mechanics do and how they do it.)

Interesting angle (you're more of a chosen person/superhero that way), but genuine horror? I'm puzzled that you say that people should just be able to shake off the virus. I'm not saying it does not have its draws, but it's completely different from how The Virus genre conventions work. It means no outbreak scenarios (even if it's a zombie bite, people just recover), no global human threat, and the Infected is more of a chosen person/superhero (more playing for the cool powers/less playing for the drama).

Usually in the genre, unless you are The Immune (that single one-in-a-million person whose body -is- The Cure), all that a strong immune system can do for you is slow down the progression of the virus a bit. (Perhaps long enough that you can track down and acquire a strain sample from the primary Infectee, and make a cure before you turn a' la Vampire Refugee, but if you want to survive, the best you can do is not getting infected in the first place).

edited 21st Nov '11 9:57:32 AM by Vree

Well, I was play with a less "Chosen One" angle and more... Bad luck. Maybe it's a silly thought, but I was trying to play up the awful plays of luck in why you get to be the mutated awful piece of horror while everyone else gets better. You grasp at straws, screaming and raging and wondering WHY. Why you and not the others? Why does it lay dormant in them, simply spreading or dying and why did it make you into a monster? Why you and not them? Why do you loose everything while they have so much? That was more the angle I was going for, but I can see where the distinction may be lacking! I'll work on it some more, maybe the Pathogen has a low transmission rate to humans???

My friend Wonsab has been helping me with the powers, and I think he came up with a great system. You get the Subversions: Corpus (Converting ATP to Biomass), Chemical (Control of chemicals throughout the body), Miasma(Control of Miasma a tentative rename of Aura), Induction(Pulling matter into yourself a la Tetsuo/Prototype), Bioelectricity (Exactly What It Says On The Tin), Mutation (Attacks via body horror a la the Thing), and Evolution (Adaptation to ones environment and needs). Each of these stands on their own two feet as a power, but then, you can combo the powers. So say you have Mutation 2 and Corpus 1 (A starting character), you get two combos between the powers within the Subversions. Then when you buy a new dot of Subversion, say Corpus 2, then you get another combo!

And on the Splats, I'll just go with Symptom/Wing, and start playing with it?

Oh and Vampire, I feel we're not fully stepping on it's toes. Vampire is about controlling the city. Pathogen feels more like hiding in the closet until the screaming stops.

edited 21st Nov '11 10:40:15 AM by NightmareWork

Good luck...Post them on the Wiki or share them here when you've done some of them. Oh, and also you could explain the system in more detail. Where does one spend the experience? What do they use as activation rolls? How do the "reactions" work? etc.

For example, Vampire's powers are progressive, you need to buy the previuos dots in every Discipline before you gain access to the higher dot powers. Promethean is similar but you can "skip" - you can save some exp and move on directly to a two dots higher power. Genius and Mage have free-form systems where you get a whole bunch of new powers every new dot, but you have to activate them with a separate preparation/activation roll first. (Mage also has the player pour exp into "rotes" so that he can have trademark easily-activated spells.) And there are stuff like the Possessed ("Inferno") who do not follow the regular template format at all.

I like Miasma, I wanted to make use of that somewhere. (Also I was thinking the other day, trying to run a test battle with Chimera, that it could be nice to have sort of "area effects" that affect everyone on the battlefield, or alter the enviroment around the Infectee. For example, a posionous cloud that saps everyone's Health (including the Infected) or a smoke cloud that forces everyone to use the Fighting Blind Rules for its duration. So I could see that going places.

Not sure if I agree with your power categories yet - Corpus, OK, that's probably a better name that what I can come up with, Chemical is fine (though not a very good name), I could get behind that grouping (now that I think of it, maybe one group for body hormones/adrenaline and another for liquids you send outside would be the best) but I don't see why Bioelectricity needs to be a whole Subversion if you lose all the other stuff (I tried to pair it with mental abilites because brain neurons also work through electricity and because the original Subversion has similar powers but maybe that was forced too...And Promethean did electricity as a major thing anyway).

I've been trying to work on a "Broodlord" tree that someone asked here for, I think that should be in there somewhere too.

What I've been trying to do with Subversions myself was re-arrange them in a more, well, logical manner. (Though the randomness of the powers may also be in tone with the game, but still.)

For example, I like Predation - it is an interesting power. But I did not like it that all Infected were hunter types. What I was thinking is creating a whole set of "behavior" skills - for example, Evolution already had powers for a "prey animal" tree (like Danger Sense). And some powers here and there stuck me as if they were in the wrong tree so I tried to swap them around or assign them to new Subversions.

I'm also trying to add more "body horror" material. We haven't even begun to tap the really weird stuff. I don't neccessarily want to force it on the player to play a character like that (the current power sets are more "awesome" than "scary", and I do not want to lose that angle) but they should be in there. It should be possible to play both a character who is basically a normal human with an over-active body that gives him more power, but also a horribly mutating monster.

Also, some random stuff that I've been working, off the top of my head.
- Many splats have their own secondary way of gaining experience. (Practical Experience (Hunter), Vitriol (Promethean)) Infected should have it, too. In their case, it should be the parasite's experience pool (the virus learns about and grows more accustomed to its host over time, and grows stroner itself as it has more power over its home). You can spend this to buy Resonance, Subversions and to buy back "parasite Willpower" if any dots were spent. It may also be possible to spend it to customize one's own pathogen strain. - Customizing strains: This is actually an old idea. Each "strain" would come with its own package of abilities: who it can infect, how long does the incubation time last, etc.
For example: Zombie plague: only infects humans; incubation time is Very Fast (an infected mortal makes a roll to resist succumbing to the plague every hour instead of every day), infectivity is Very Strong (-2 to all rolls to try to shake off the disease), transmission: bite.
Basically the idea was to allow the Infected to set these for himself when he develops his own strain.
- Talking of strains, here is how I see it right now:
a character can become infectious at will (he can willingly pass on the disease if he wants to) at Resonance 2. He can choose to develop his virus into a new strain at Resonance 4 or higher. This transforms both the character and how he passes on the disease from there on. At Resonance 6 or higher, the character is infectious and automatically passes on the disease at a regular interval (the higher his Resonance the more frequently; I'm thinking monthly at 6, weekly at 7, daily at 8, hourly at 9 and constantly to anyone he encounters at 10).
- All strains have a core Symptom and a specific advantage similar to a Promethean Bestowement. The character gains a Symptom and a Bestowement(...thing) when the character is created, and a second Symptom and advantage when he develops his virus into a new strain. All new Chimera and new Infected created by the character start with the character's new strain. (Before he develops it, he spreads his own starting strain.)
You do not have to decide where the character got his first strain when you create him. Maybe he was the first; maybe the "parent" is simply unknown. But you can basically choose any Symptom and advantage that you want. The X-and Y-splat only determines which Symptom and advantage group you can choose from; for example, X-splat 1. may be "it must be a mental Symptom, Insomnia or Madness or something like that". - Infection rules! I'll post these before they get buried under my notes again. Will post on the Wiki later.
A single Resolve + Stamina - Infected's Resonance is made by the victim when the infection happens.

Dramatic Failure: The character has absolutely no defense against the disease, and "turns" instantly. Proceed to the Infectee creation roll.
Failure: The character contracts the disease. Proceed to the extended roll.
Success: The victim dodges catching the disease, and it can not be attempted again during the same scene.
Exceptional Success: The character is immune. You can never attempt to infect him again. He also gains the Immune merit at no cost.

If the roll is a failure (the victim contracts the disease), an extended and contested roll is made every day (for a virus with a different incubation period, frequency might be different: minutely, hourly, maybe even turnly for a fast-acting disease, weekly, monthly, even yearly for a slow one), where the victim's die pool is his Stamina and the virus' pool is the Infected's Resonance. The target number is 10 successes. If the victim reaches it first, he recuperates and is considered Immune from that point onwards. If the virus reaches it first, proceed to the Infectee creation roll.

When the character succumbs to the disease, roll his Stamina again.

Dramatic Failure: The character dies.
Failure: The character becomes a minor Chimera, essentially a zombie. He loses all attributes except for Strenght, which is doubled; all skills, and all merits; he only keeps his Size, which is his new Health stat, and his Speed species factor (before adding Strenght and Dexterity), which is his new Speed.
Success: The character becomes a major Chimera, essentially a monster with animal-like intelligence and mentality. Intelligence is reduced to 1, and all skills are lost. Attributes may be redistributed on a 1-for-1 basis to reflect the character's new form. The character may also gain Resonance and powers [dependiong on the system we use for Chimera].
Excptional Success: The character gains the full Infected template. Consider yourself lucky, punk.

So there you have it! I even managed to sneak surviving the infection option in there like @Nightmare Work wanted. I don't say it's a perfect system, but it's something we can work with.

edited 28th Nov '11 4:03:41 PM by Vree

Okay! Sure, can do, the wiki is a thing that will happen for me. I just have to organize everything together into a more cohesive system of powers and progression. It may take some time > 3>

EDITS EDITS: Oh and by the by, on the "Broodlord" power tree, that's what I'm making my "Miasma" power tree, especially when you combo it. Also, a factor of Miasma and a helpful quirk of it: It creates a sort of Delirium, a minor infection, a fever of the memory. Of course it creates a fevered fear, but also a fevered rage, both fight and flight are blended into the Miasmic Fever that spreads when an Infected activates more blatant powers in front of mortals (It may even try to sink into other Supernaturals, if only in the most minor of ways). The Miasma is really a more flavorful name for the Aura, with a few neat effects. It still reaches out to spread Pathogen, making Chimeras, et all. And the Power named for it involves Controlling other Infected Critters as well as your own Miasma.

Also Edit: On the Awesome V Scary, I figure once the powers are more fluffed out they'll get scarier, I'm also trying to work on some powers based around body-phobias like Tryophobia and the like. Sliding organs, vomit, blood, bile, and parasites. Broken bones and torn flesh. Painful growth, etc etc.

edited 29th Nov '11 9:55:02 PM by NightmareWork

If you guys get the chance, take some time to read Schism Revised (now freely downloadable from this link celebrating its 10th birthday). What grabbed me was the section on Humanity, which makes me want to bring back Humanity to replace Fusion again to stress the themes of loss of self.

EDIT: The typewriter beetles◊ in Naked Lunch are pretty nice.

edited 15th Dec '11 7:24:11 PM by Vree

So, checking if there is still interest for this.

I'm kind of looking to pass the lead role on to someone else, if anyone wants it. I do not have the time or the ability to playtest this anymore, and there should plenty of people better more knowledge on Wo D than myself.

Anyway, if you just have some new ideas you want to share or if you clicked this for the first time and have some thoughts please share those too.

Well I haven't got much to add but I would hate to see this die with a wimpier.

how much of the rules have we got worked out?

As the person who rescued Pathogen from oblivion three years ago, I have to say that this project needs to be tightened up severely.

I found this no-nonsense review for the first draft, which spells out a lot of problems that will need to be fixed. EDIT: Most of these have been fixed already, but it's possible we missed something.

Any questions?

EDIT: What we need to do is make an outline, fix all the bad parts, sort through the stuff in this thread for good ideas, integrate those ideas, do more bugfixing, and then repeat the process until we have the finished product.

EDIT: There is a wiki where we can work on this.

edited 10th Mar '12 2:31:25 PM by Zenoseiya

You're doing a good job Zenoseiya! I should shake your hand just for putting Flesh and Blood on the Wiki, that's been waiting for a long time.

In all honestly not a fan of offensive abilities; if it was up to me I would take most offensive abilities right out and collect them into a single track. Why? Because fighting really does not offer as many interesting storytelling possibilities as one may think.

But it'd be a waste to let go of cool powers just because of my feelings, so I'm extremely glad that we have others here to comment on that. And I accept that they make sense from a Gamist perspective (but in that case one should be very careful that they are balanced properly).

Taking a quick look at those three again the first thing that pokes my eye out is Ravenous Reconstruction being very unbalanced. It requires that you have access to corpses, actually it even specifies that you should kill an enemy first, which is a serious Morality sin. Unless we remove murder from under our Morality completely that's a serious cost right there. Even then we'd need to make killing a frequent part of the game to give it some degree of utility. And then it still costs a 4 dot power and 3 ATP to just heal a little damage which is ridiculous.

It strikes me that you could, maybe, transform it into a power that specifically restores Aggravated damage. That'd make it a more interesting power to have.

edited 11th Mar '12 1:38:19 AM by Vree

The subversions could be made flexible rather than having fixed powers for each level. What we'd need then is a series of guidelines for what's possible at each level, a la Mage's Spheres/Arcana or this custom demon powers system. In the same vein, we could have "rote subversions," which an infected has practiced so much that they are easier to perform than usual.

Ravenous Reconstruction could definitely benefit from a few changes. Killing should be optional: the corpse only needs to be warm, so the infected could scavenge victims of alcohol poisoning, gang violence, etc. How about being able to heal 2B/1L/1A for every health dot the corpse possessed? The downside is that it takes a while for the flesh to assimilate: each point healed still possesses its donor's appearance until the point where the infected would have healed naturally. In fact, the flesh need not even be dead, or human for that matter: the infected can replace a lost arm with a live snake, or a bear's claws, etc. The power then becomes much more useful.

EDIT: We should also make sure to keep systems simple: explanations should be short and to the point and excessively complex special rules should be avoided.

EDIT: For example, I simplified the rules for recovering ATP. Players shouldn't have to choose a different method for how their character gains ATP, a la Producer vs. Consumer. Additionally, characters should be able to consume their ATP when they don't have food available, as ATP represents stored energy/nutrients.

The idea of the parasite intelligence working like Zombie The Coil's Lich, Wraith The Oblivion's Shadow, and Kindred Of The East's Po is a neat idea. Wraith The Arising presents a simplified system for Shadows, if we want inspiration.

EDIT: Splats should also be restricted to the social splats. Symptoms could work as advantages/disadvantages caused by the character's immune system fighting off the infection; characters could perhaps possess from one to three of them, and could add or switch one for another at the ST's discretion.

EDIT: Incorporation could benefit from being expanded from "fusing with technology" to "fusing with metals, plastics, etc" a la the Tetsuo: Iron Man movie and its sequel.

edited 11th Mar '12 11:32:15 AM by Zenoseiya

Hi! I'm about to read through these ideas because the project seems to be coming swimmingly, and since I'm bored, I think I'd like to help out (if I am so permitted?)

And, erm, since this game is meant to be about creepy mutating diseases... ST Ds. I'm just putting it out there and you can't really ignore them, given the subject material. Plus, it'd be a bit like playing a Slipperman, and that sounds vaguely appealing (sorta-kinda).

Oh good the thread returns...

ST Ds wouldn't be gratuitous considering the premise, Wo D has pulled a lot worst shit over the years and they're a professional publishing company!

The draft's principal problem, elucidated by something awful, was that the political splats were mostly evil, and that the Fusion statistic wasn't really appropriate because the conflict of body horror films was the slow descent into madness that is reflected by the changing body rather than managing and learning to live with the condition. I think, instead, the game shouldn't be about managing the condition but resisting it: instead of Fusion, use Sanity, and have it be capped by the power statistic; as Sanity drops, the character can develop derangements or physical mutations (since the body reflects the mind). When an infected reaches 0 Sanity, they become a monster in mind and body (if they don't commit suicide first).

On the other hand, the revision effort suffered from the "too many cooks" problem. There also wasn't very much management, with people just randomly posting ideas instead of working out the outline first. The most important thing before writing the game is to write the outline.

It's sad this died, it had so many good ideas.

Same. I was reading rational wiki's page on the wide legal powers of The Department Of Disease Control just the other day and it brought back memories on the game.

I guess you were too beautiful for this world, good night sweet splat. May you dream eternal.

edited 8th Apr '14 1:50:45 AM by joeyjojo

So let me ask this...If you guys are still around...Then how'bout we quit slacking off and finish the game, hmm? :p

Okay, let me make that an official announcement:

PATHOGEN IS NOT DEAD.

However, it needs YOUR help to become a successful project! (Yes, you, the one reading this)

The reason I abandoned this project (temporarily) because there were some parts I could not do by myself and I did not find enough people who I was confident would be able to do it.

For me just by myself, 1. and 3. are manageable and 2 is very hard That means that it's going to be YOU guys who are going to help me and do those bits, for there to be a successful project.

1. We need tropes, and we need the game to develop an identity

If you have posted in this thread about a great horror idea/concept you've had or even just an unique one you've read, you've already made the greatest possible contribution for this project.

See, adding the mechanics are easy. Please do not for a moment see this as an exercise in power-writing. Any fool can make a 5-step power "tree" and assign dice and damage effects to it. What we are looking for instead is the story the game should tell, the atmosphere it should create.

I've created some of my ideas in the past based on what I thought was common in body horror fiction. BUT! this is _your_game. If your Pathogen related experience for example is the videogame Prototype, and you couldn't care less about Cronenberg or Hellstrom's Hive, then THAT's what we will do.

Tell me the kind of games you'd like to play. Tell what Pathogen means to _you_.

Ulimately guys it's going to be you who are going to use this system to play the games you want to play, so we damn well should make one that fits your needs to tell those specific stories.

2. We need writers

I may have mentioned before in this thread, but I am not native American or British. I am European (Hungarian) which means that as eloquent my speech may seem in a forum conversation, I fall to pieces when it comes to the figures of speech that are neccessary for writing fiction, such as game fiction; or inventing the Capital Letter terminology needed for any Wo D game.

So I'll be relying on you for that. I'd like some quality control - please only write fiction if you are somewhat confident in your ability. If you can mimic Adam Thaxton's level/style, that's sufficient.

3. We need rules

I actually feel confident I could handle this. If you are planning to work on the mechanics, then you should be at least casually familar with the nWoD games and rules. If you need other RPG games and systems, cool, we can use too. Those of you who played different kinds of games have likely met other ideas and systems and know which worked well and which did not, and would be able to throw them in a game like this. Creative thinking is good. But you should not get too wrapped up in how nWoD games "usually" go, or invent too ambitious systems/tweaks. The rules are secondary. If you have the story you want to emulate worked out, the rules will more or less follow by themselves from it.

Pathogen can never be truly eradicated, merely it lays dormant in the nerve cells and vascular system of those it comes in contact with, waiting for the time to return!

I'll see what I can do, I'll need to brush up on my new world of darkness rules but I know a fair bit about what nasty nasty diseases are out there.

edited 14th Apr '14 7:16:48 PM by joeyjojo

I'd really love to help write for this. It's such a...

Profoundly unsettling concept, and I'd like to name a Pathogen experience I think is nice:

Pathologic, a game about a plague outbreak in a small, turn-of-the-century town.

I would also be interested in working on this. I'm not particularly knowledgeable on nWoD mechanics, but I could probably help with writing.

Back from the brink.

Hmmm.

I'll read up on this.

Great we've got the perfect team. Now all we need is one of us to actually read the New World Of Darkness core rule book...

not-it

But in all honesty, I've no way of acquiring the book, so I don't think I'll be handling that bit