Devil May Cry

Raiden never really bugged me cause His existence is the greatest narrative device ever... By making him the focal point, after basically a glorified tutorial with Snake, suddenly Snake goes from Reasonable but Realistic Badass to Mythical Badass in the span of one game.

cause even if Objectively speaking Raiden does something more impressive it doesn't matter cause he isn't THE LEGENDARY Solid Snake

I could see a Crossover working... I mean Bayonetta kinda runs of Time paradox and Alterante realites

edited 12th Feb '15 9:12:43 AM by FrozenWolf2

I don't think Raiden becoming a bloodthirsty cyborg ninja is a flanderization or derailment so much as an evolution of his character. raiden was established as a pretty messed up individual in MGS 2, what with him being a child soldier from the middle east and earning an extremely high body count to the point he was giving that infamous cheesy nickname. What he went through in MGS 2 was also kind of unnerving in and of itself and it's understandable that he wasn't able to cope and mentally regressed to the thing that formed the core of his identity since childhood, i.e murder.

People disliked Raiden initially for various reasons; either they just got mad that they were hardcore trolled and didn't get to play as Snake, didn't understand the purpose of his character, didn't react well to the narrative implications of his place in the narrative (i.e used as a proxy for the player to tell them how much they suck), etc. I think Raiden is a great character all-around no matter the game in the series. It just so happens that his current characterization is something that people who don't appreciate Playingthe Player, This Loseris You and Takethat Audience can get behind, which makes him more popular all-around. I suspect some people who enjoy Raiden's new characterization also might have reflected and come to at least accept the merit of his initial characterization and role in MGS 2.

I think Donte represents everything that can go wrong when a western developer tries to reinvent a japanese franchise to make it more marketable to western consumers, so even disregarding the fact that it's not really derrogatory so much as humorous it doesn't really bother me.

edited 12th Feb '15 9:36:17 AM by wehrmacht

I don't understand why Capcom thought Dante needed to be reinvented for western audiences. I mean, have they seen the classic American action hero? They tend to be just as cheesy and just as over-the-top as Dante (well, not as OTT but still) and people generally love them.

Eh, probably the same reason Capcom did it with Bionic Commando and Ghosts and Goblins. Someone in their corporate structure doesn't get that western audiences can like Japanese games just fine.

or that people buy their games BECAUSE they're japanese and not western.

Dm C seems to be for Dante what Other M was for Samus -Character wise-

Since the Reboot was cause "They felt Dante as a character had gotten stale"

Then why don't you put him through a ringer? Put Dante in scenario where he can laugh at his opponents -Cause he is Dante its kinda what he does- but he can't laugh them off.

Cause all they did in Dm C was take most of Dante's persona and generalized it... and alot of the differences that were suppose to be there were only inferred. -Then again I'm convinced that the Writer for Dm C thought Dante was the most boring character in the narrative...-

I'll give Dm C this... The Scenes with Phineas were great. and Dante being genuinely Human and warm around Kat -cause lets be honest outside of a few scenes, Its kinda hard to take Classic Dante seriously in scenes where he is trying to drop the over the top ham.

... play the clip

Also, MGR used the same character, was full of nods to the previous games, and ramped up the awesome. Dm C rebooted him, based a fair bit of its advertising campaign on belittling the original character and games, and rather failed to live up to the previous games in the awesome department.

I think that is absolutely Flanderization, just "positive" flanderizing, in that Raiden doesn't become wimpier or more solemn, he turns into a Blood Knight. It derails the evolution of his character.

After MGS 4 spent so much time granting various characters "inner peace", it feels like a bit of Flanderi Zation for him to revert. In the beginning of the game, the "semi-normal" Raiden is immediately cut down by Samuel, forcing him to undergo transformation into an even more effective killer. Raiden's development in Rising is becoming even more Bad Ass than before by embracing his inner demons, in direct opposite of him simply being happy, being able to exist as a person, learning to live with those demons.

In order to defeat his opponents, he has to show them that he's even crazier than they are. Raiden's gradually returning humanity from 2 and 4 is lessened, while his addiction to violence is heavily focused on, even celebrated. And we're fine with this, because it looks really freaking cool.

I'm sorry, but, you honestly want me to believe you/most are actually distinguishing it that way. This isn't an "endearing" nickname like Fauxlivia or Flocke, this is a "I dislike this iteration of the character, and this allows me to both distinguish and spite him." It's convenient, it's great, in fact if I thought Classic Dante was a great character I might even use it myself.

edited 12th Feb '15 4:14:36 PM by FOFD

For it to be Flanderization Raiden would have needed the Traits in the previous installments and thus ramped up for no real reason other then thats what people identify him as.

Rising isn't a Derailment... Its The sad truth that like Big Boss, Raiden can't get away from his past. -Solid Snake might be the only one who truly gets to walk away from it all-

Raiden in the end succumbs to the reality that he is killer and he likes it... I mean Its not like he descends as far as Big Boss falls in 4 -and Metal Gear 1 and 2. but any idea that he can be something more then what comes on instinct seems to have been crushed

Raiden to an extent does find peace... its just not the peace of a normal life. He finds peace in combat... It is his normal after all.

But they are.

These traits are present in 2, and 4, and are resolved in 4, but then brought back in with Revengeance.

The only real reason is that the game is made by Platinum Games and Raiden is the only important character they could excuse to take part in an action-focused sequel. Raiden was specifically made into a Cyborg Ninja in 4 because Kojima thought it would make him appeal more.

edited 12th Feb '15 4:40:05 PM by FOFD

From the way you described it, it sounds like the traumatic experience of being easily cut down and then turned into a cyborg caused Raiden to mentally revert to an earlier stage as a coping mechanism. Since it seems like no one ever called him out on it (I don't know. I've never played a MGS game) and that reversion allowed him to do what needed to be done, he embraced that side rather than fighting it.

Traumatic experience can and will cause people to revert mentally. Under the right circumstances, it's not impossible for that reversion to be permanent. Doesn't sound like Flanderization to me.

I wouldn't be surprised if MGR 2 has hom finally put his sword down at the end, though.

Eh, it's not like it's the first time this has happened. Metal Gear Solid gave Snake a happy ending, but it apparently went to shit by the time the sequel started.

...wait hold on which thread are we in again?

edited 12th Feb '15 11:03:00 PM by EndlessSea

The Devil May Cry thread. Which is I will ask this on-topic question: Has Dante ever interacted with Morrigan Aensland in the cutscenes of any Capcom crossover game?

edited 14th Feb '15 8:37:19 AM by MarqFJA

I'm saying it's quite unnecessary for Raiden to go back to being Hot-Blooded, but as noted, this does sort of happen with Solid Snake. I have no positive arguments to make against using supposed real-world psychology as an answer to defiance of narrative themes and symbolism, so I'm going to leave it at that.

Original point being: Raiden was effectively rebooted (same past, little connection to it), while Dante wasn't was literally rebooted (past thrown out all together). Fans reacted positively to Raiden, and negatively to Dante. Despite this juxtaposition, before Raiden was "cool", there wasn't a Fan Nickname like "Gayden" or "Cartwheel Man" or "Blonde Aryan Snake".

Capcom Versus Whatever?

I know Jebediah Jedah received a visit from Dante in one his endings.

edited 14th Feb '15 9:41:19 AM by FOFD

there may not have been a widespread Fan Nickname but people still really hated Raiden.

I agree that having Raiden go back to being a bloodthirsty killer feels kind of wrong after what happened in MGS 4, but it's not completely unbelievable. Raiden was way more interesting and likable than new Dante in MGS 2 and 4, and continues to be so in Revengeance even as a PTSD-ridden psychotic killer.

Jebediah? You mean Jedah, right?

I'd be surprised if there wasn't an interaction in Project X zone between Dante/Demetri and Morrigan at some point.

there's plenty, from what I remember.

He also has a bit with Arthur from Fghosts and Goblins and a bit with the main duo of Shining Force Exa.

edited 18th Feb '15 3:37:47 AM by Demongodofchaos2

So... No discussion or theorizing on the recent DMC 4:SE teaser?

Okay, hype. Anything to make me believe the pre-reboot series is not dead.

He's Back!.

Yeah, Vergil's definitely back in the world of the living. I'm just wondering how, since he was offed by Mundus and turned into Nelo Angelo before the first game began.

Well Nelo Angelo's death is the most... ambiguous with Nelo vanishing in a massive burst of light -compared to everybody else-

I know not of this Nelo Angelo that you speak of.