Devil May Cry

Oh my bad then.

Can't really disagree with everything you said overall, 'cause I think everything you cite as a problem is the reason that's one of my favorite games. You're probably right when you say the ennemies are glorified dummies, because one of the things I liked the most about the game is the room it does give you to easily pull off combos, use different moves, not just stick to the basics attacks because you're too busy thinking about not dying to try to be creative.

That's a minor gripe of mine with some of the other fellow beat them up i've played, such as Lords of Shadow or Bayonetta, sometimes they believe they are Dark Souls and forces you to play way too defensively, waiting for an opening and punishing without putting much thought it. I love Dark souls and i'm fine with the "focus on dodging and punish with r1s or r2s if you're playing bloodborne" in it, but I don't play beat them up games for that.

But I can totally see how this game being my first real introdcution to the genre may have skewed my perception a bit.

Finally, not to defend the story because no one can ever pull that off, but Kat was a decent character. Maybe not on par with the Dm C standards, but nothing wrong with her. And the night club level and the bob barbas fight at least get points for visual coolness everywhere.

Honestly, I try to cut Donte's game some slack since it is a very serviceable action game. If it weren't a completely unnecessary DMC reboot I think it would be a cult classic and even we would be saying "Ninja Theory did a great job making a DMC-esque game."

But the story... It wants to say something important, but is just following the trends, saying the easy stuff. Metal Gear Rising, despite having one of Metal Gear's simpler tales, had a much bolder message and actually challenged its audience. Donte's game panders by saying "it's evil bankers and news people and stuff." Its final attempt at moral complexity comes out of nowhere and is quite laughable.

Ooooooooh, comparing it to metal gear rising hurts the story way more than any other comparison ever did imo. Armstrong is such a memorable villain.

I really do wonder if I would be alot easier on the gameplay if it wasn't for the marketing campaign. Which honestly, more than anything else, is I think what killed the game's sales. It's the same thing that happened to Ghostbusters 2016. The marking was based on spite and condescension for the older fans thanks to them giving the spotlight to the shittiest people in the respective fandoms, and painting the reasonable people with the same brush. So when they tried to portray Dm C as being superior to the older games, and it falling short in practise, it makes you think less of Dm C.

Why they think that's a good marketing strategy, one will never know.

You'd think people would learn that insulting your audience is precisely the wrong way to sell your product by now.

Anyways, been replaying DMC 3 again on the PS 4. I'm once again reminded why this game is still, in my eyes, the best action game ever. Sure, games like Bayonetta, Asura's Wrath, and Metal Gear Rising may have surpassed it in terms of scale and spectacle, but in terms of mechanics, strategy, and overall depth, even to this day, 3 is unmatched. Seriously, going through the game once using the Swordmaster style and then again using Trickster almost makes the game feel like a completely different experience. Just goes to show how much complexity the combat in 3 still has, and makes me wish that more games would focus on the mechanics more than the scale, like it did.

Nothing against games like that (Bayonetta 2 is my second favorite action game after all), but the grounded style of DMC 3 to me just feels more satisfying.

edited 31st Mar '18 1:25:44 AM by LDragon2

Speaking of DMC3, here's an excellent video going into detail why it's story is much more than people give it credit for:

On the themes of family, the games have a recurring element wherein one character gives another a personal heirloom; Lady gives Dante her bazooka names after her mom, Dante gives Trish his father's sword, as well s giving Nero Vergil's sword, not to mention the amulet. Every time it's like Dante gets a new family member. Hell, even as lackluster as 2 was, Dante still gave Lucia that coin. I hope someday Lucia gets put into a better game. She deserves better.

I liked that video.

Also, Lady is hotter in 3 than 4.

She's young in 3 though no? Like in her teens?

Idk I prefer 4 Lady if only because she's an actual adult lol.

If she's 16 in 3 then as a Brit I'm fine, especially since I first played 3 when I was 15.

But I'm sure you Yanks/Canucks will still call me a pervert.

Lady in 3 should be about the same age as Dante, who was 19 back then iirc. So yeah, it's legal to want to tap that.

Doesn't change that she's hotter in 4 tho'.

Is sanity the the price to pay... FOR POWER!?

Could you elaborate on what you mean please? How do you feel Rising challenged the audience in a way Dm C didn’t?

I’ll give Dm C credit for one thing. It did add some complexity to Vergil.

I do wonder if their version of Dante might have been better received if he was Nero. They do have a bit more in common.

I honestly think they removed complexity from Vergil, or at the very least made him less interesting. The angle of old Vergil, where he was not really a bad guy, but ultimately driven by his demonic side and succumbing to his obsessions for more power was more interesting and creative than new Vergil, who is some asshole who decides to rule humans at the last minute and Dante is like "No that's bad" so he beats him up and he runs away. Because he was jealous, even though that really didn't come across in the main game.

Whoa whoa WHOA

Let's not overrated Capcom here.

Devil May Cry was basically Inuyasha with guns in a modern day setting. Hardly what I'd describe as intelligent or deep writing. In fact Capcom in general are crappy writers. But DMC's charm made up for all the cliches it embraced

I wouldn't call old school Vergil particularly deep or interesting. Cool? Oh yes definitely. But the guy is cookie cutter animu rival bro once you got down to it. He's nothing special character wise.

I never said it was deep writing. It's not like old Vergil is this amazing philosophical tour de force, it's nice, simple and effective character writing that successfully contrasts with the main character, and is presented very, very well with great imagery, dialogue and music. None of the DMC stories are good, it's the characters that I feel are well done, and are the stars of the mythos. Hell, in watching the Animated Series, I honestly think Dante, Trish and Lady (Patty to a lesser extent) are the saving graces of that show.

It's why Dm C falls so flat, since for all the boasting about how they were gonna have a real, emotional, deep story that would put the old games to shame, we get this pile of crap that uses even more cliches than the original (Dante has amnesia! There's a chosen one prophecy to make him important! He has a damsel love interest!) with this pathetic, absolutely juvenile 'social commentary' that had no place in a Devil May Cry game, and vague and arbitrary world building that squanders what new ideas they have.

There's a few hints of it in the main game, but I feel Vergil's Downfall is where the writing really serves Vergil.

Also, I think stabbing your brother and trying to release hell on Earth puts you firmly in bad guy territory. There's a reason Dante was not on Vergil's side in the original game. Hell, Dm C (and I cannot believe I'm spending even this much defending it) showed Dante and Vergil as allies and even brothers before they parted ways.

Does Kat really count as a love interest? She seems more friends than anything.

edited 2nd Apr '18 12:19:42 AM by windleopard

Even that was just a poor retread of the first light novel.

The big issue with seeing Dante and Vergil work together in the reboot is that most of it is just Vergil hanging back at base, or hacking stuff in the background. By the time they're actually fighting side by side, it barely lasts before Mundus eats Vergil. And their banter together consists of a really bad dick joke.

In DMC 3, the game didn't show Dante and Vergil's days of working together, but the part where they teamed up against Arkham was a moment where it felt like we got all we needed to know. We see Dante and Vergil in synch, doing all these wild combination moves, and they end it off with a line that highlights how they used to be a team. ("Remember what we used to say?" "Yeah." "JACKPOT!") It winds up making it more tragic when Vergil winds up unable to let go of his obsessions, since you really feel that he could have been more.

I think I was pretty clear in why I think Donte's game lacks the political punch it was going for: It goes for the easy targets. And Vorgil suddenly being evil just doesn't make sense. How does he even think he can take over now that Mundus is gone? Apparently get a demon army... but isn't the whole point of the game is now people can fight back? Maybe the intended sequel would have helped, but I barely care enough to speculate.

As for why MGR is better, it presents us the obvious villains, but then twists it: People's apathy in general allowed the villains to exploit the weak. The Mooks aren't as clear cut as we want to think. And the main villain has legitimate arguments for his terrible deeds that many wackos actually adhere to, as exaggerated as they might be. In a world like Metal Gear, his ideas almost make sense. There is a question in the end if Raiden's ways are actually more "moral", and that is something the player is left with.

Donguri continues to outdo himself, especially in the last fight:

....just how? 0_0

So I've acquired DMC 4:SE yesterday.

I honestly forgot how fun this game was, even if Evil Pope 2 can go blow himself. Nero just handles really well. Speaking of handling, boy, am I confused by both Vergil and Lady's gameplays. It's a shame the level progression appears to be the same, but I'll take three new playable characters either way.

It also occurs to me that Speed now works almost instantly outside of combat. It's a neat touch; saves on seconds for S-Rank Time.

"Evil Pope 2"? Is that some sort of Fan Nickname for Sanctus in his capacity as the initially secret Big Bad of DMC4?