Babylon 5

I could see the discussion going down.

"You can't do that, it's against our religion!"
"Look, which one of us is Jesus here?"
"Who's Jesus?"
weary sigh

Edited by AFP on May 12th 2019 at 1:40:04 PM

Did the Minbari REALLY detect a Minbari soul, though? Or did they just detect that Sinclair was Valen?

Also, when did he transform into a Minbari? I don't remember that part.

He transforms in that B4 episode.

The device Sinclair used was the same one that Delenn used but set in reverse, its a minor plot point that when Delenn used it it was still set up for 'Valen's' DNA and the fact that it reacted to her meant that she was technically a distant descendant Sinclair/Velen which was a minor scandal itself considering that Valen's followers were supposedly permanently exiled from Minbar.

I don't think they ever stated exactly where the devise actually came from but knowing the plot of the episode it was likely from the Great Machine.

Edited by Memers on May 12th 2019 at 4:28:52 AM

The B5 wiki states that it was from the Great Machine, yes.

Which makes me wonder how Delenn got ahold of it in the first place, as we already see her preparing it before the events that revealed the Great Machine to them.

Delenn got it from Minbar IIRC, it was literally the same one Valen used a thousand years ago.

Ah, I see, and Sinclair got it from the Great Machine.

It's never really pointed out, but it is a nice little stable time loop in the show.

One of the Grey Council members gives it to her during a visit to the station in the first season. IIRC, a couple of episodes were out of order so that we ended up seeing her fussing with it in her quarters before he gives it to her. Ultimately she ends up spending a significant portion of Season 1 just putting together her Chrysalis device right in front of the audience.

Whats cool is that it was always set up for Sinclair's DNA, when it came near his DNA the top triangle of the device, The 'Triluminary', glowed. Valen's decendants were exiled after he died cause of 'racism' but apparently came back later and quietly reintegrated with the rest of the Minbari.

That Triluminary was used by the Grey council as a ceremonial thing, when Delenn came in contact with it the first time it glowed... this is what made Dukhat to take her under her wing. It also glowed... at the Battle of the Line which lead to everything else leading to everything else.

Even if you don't like the take on the whole 'souls' thing Valen's remaining human DNA is mixed in with Minbari.

I don't mind the souls thing, I just think that there is a very plausible in-universe alternative explanation for it. In-universe, the Minbari do not know that Sinclair IS Valen after time travel and genetic modification, and therefore cannot conclude otherwise that Valen has reincarnated into Sinclair.

Edited by Redmess on May 12th 2019 at 4:59:02 PM

Speaking about souls, I think Lennier's speech at the start of season 2, about each of their generation being diminished, is a strong indication that the Minbari are stand-ins for the British Empire at the height of their power. They are the unquestioned superpower amongst the young races (the First Ones effectively being gods, rather than rival nations), and they are going through a period of (perceived or real) decline similar to that of the British fin de siecle. The fin de siecle was the feeling of decline of empire, as well as the decline of the species, a degeneration into a less civilized state. This is also made very literal by Delenn's transformation into a half-human hybrid.

The Centauri are also a representation of the British Empire, but they are the postcolonial empire, the remnant of empire after all colonies have gained independence. It is no coincidence that Londo's quote on Vestigial Empire applies just as well to the British Empire.

The Narn, then, are naturally the ex-colonized, if I had to pick any, I would say India is a great fit: the primary colony of the Empire, stripped of all it's wealth and resources, as India was, now a rising power in it's own right, as India became after it's independence.

The non-aligned worlds are effectively lesser former colonies and nations that never had as much power of their own as the "world powers", but combined form a formiddable bloc on their own. The European Union is their closest and most natural counterpart.

The Vorlons and Shadows. as I said, don't really fit any racial or cultural mould. They are effectively angels and demons fighting over the fate of lesser beings.

And the humans are very clearly representative of Americans, the youngest power amongst the four, but the one with the greatest promise, the most flexible, the most culturally diverse (I am talking of self-image here, I am well aware of the diversity of those other nations I mentioned), but also with a darker side fueled by racism and xenophobia. The theme of human exceptionalism that underlies the show is very similar to that of the United States.

In a way, the B5 universe is England in various stages of it's history, and it's subjects (India) and incarnations (the US).

I'd use one of the other European Empires as a comparison for the Centauri, rather than the British Empire, just because their culture is so very Continental.

Hmm... the Spanish? The Narns could be Mexico or Brazil, then.

I always thought the Centauri were a mix of Post-Colonial Britain and Rome myself.

Edited by kkhohoho on May 12th 2019 at 7:35:52 AM

That works, too.

Yeah, the Centauri seemed pretty heavily based on the Romans.

Yeah, I always saw the Centauri as the Holy Roman Empire (once a great empire, but now fading) and the Narns as Israel (a former oppressed people who now have power and seek to protect themselves at all costs).

The Centauri also channel a lot of French colonialism and decadency - their clothing styles, their uniforms. Their Emperor is a Caligula / Nero expy of course. And then of course they go all Vichy by aligning with a Social Darwinist species...

The Narns are definitely not just the colonised - they're a former slave race who are still fighting for recognition.

What I did love about B5 was how it did manage to avoid the "Planet of Hats" thing - the Narns tried desperately to BE the Warrior Race but failed dismally at it (See the episode where the Narn protect the station by Zerg Rushing...) and how their primary representative, G'Kar was such a nuanced character. That scene in the council where he just quietly and calmly stands and stares at Molari... just after their near reconciliation. Truly tragic.

I can see the allegory though - a fading Empire (two of them, really) slowly being surpassed by other races (Remember, the Centauri also tried to con the Earth government as being a "lost Centauri colony world").

And Humanity could be america - with all the flaws that represents - the slow slide to Authoritarianism (Earth Gov being co-opted).

One thing I found itneresting was you only see the President's face ONCE (The bad guy President) - when he's sworn in. All other times (Including at the very end) it's just the back of his head or off screen) - apparently that was to give him a sense of being detached, never being able to put a single villainous face onto Earth Gov. And kept him as this weird shadowy figure who wasn't really the sole arbiter of everything, just an enabler.

Honestly, I think that they were just picking elements from stuff which was similar for a more general theme.

I think the idea was that the president was just a puppet of the Psi Corps and the Shadows.

I thought it was a neat touch that none of the races were shown as particularly united either, at least when we saw them in any detail. Even the Narn Regime, with a relatively unified government, had a variety of religions (Na'Toth doesn't follow the Book of G'Quan, hence G'Kar's puckish decision to cede his copy to her in his will). The Minbari have their caste system, the Centauri their Houses struggling to outmaneuver each other, the Drazi have Green and Purple, and so on.

Of the four most powerful Younger Races, two had outright civil wars, one had relatively subdued internecine conflict within their ruling class eventually leading to an assassination and coup, and the fourth possibly only avoided all that by getting beaten down by the previous one relatively early on, after which we see G'Kar struggling as the sole remaining representative of the Regime to keep his people in line.

A rather funny moment in "Race through Dark Places". Bester tells Talia to lower her telepathic barriers, and we get to hear what unshielded telepaths hear as background voices. One of the voices cough. Imagine someone coughing in their thoughts.

One funny moment I always loved is in "Intersections in Real Time" when Sheridan's torturer starts talking about how great his corned beef sandwich is("You need just the right mustard...").

Maybe the coughing thought is like the mental urge to cough given voice.

Man, ISN has a HUGE desk. That's not a podium, it's an indoor tower! Albert Speer would be proud.

Oh yes, we definitely CANNOT hold someone prisoner without a charge! That's just not done in America! It would never be allowed. Man, imagine if this show was made a decade later...

Edited by Redmess on May 18th 2019 at 7:04:02 PM

I think B5's held up pretty well overall, but its depiction of the news media seems surprisingly dated to me considering how active JMS was on the internet in its early years.

Edited by MFLuder on May 18th 2019 at 3:55:07 AM