Vampire: Bloodlines

Is it worth it, though? In that game stats actually make a big difference. If you for example focused all your exp on social and mental stuff but put very little in fighting abilities, you're screwed in the finale of the game - and there's no way to gain new exp to make up for it.

Is that a problem with the XP system or level design that gives no alternative paths to victory? Investing in social is only bad if the devs don't give you social options.

I do get why there's a limit on total xp in the entire game in order to avoid creating a minmaxed Master of All (like what happened to my character in Fallout New Vegas and Fallout 4). The main problem in the 1st Bloodline game is that there aren't enough options for different gameplay styles and to be honest far too many quests kinda railroad you into direct combat and not just near the end. An example is the Giovanni mansion where only the 1st half has social options while the 2nd half is a dungeon crawl thru zombie-infested tunnels culminating in an unskippable boss fight vs 2 Kuei-Jin.

Edited by KRider on Feb 5th 2024 at 6:18:50 AM

I'm inclined to agree with this.

Ideally, I would expect of an RPG that:

A) I can't spec into everything; I have to choose a build
and
B) The game is designed to accommodate whatever I do spec into.

Now, of course, this is far easier said than implemented.

But still, if a spec—and especially a broad class of specs—is not supported, then I'd argue that the issue is not with the available XP, but with the game's accommodation of difference specs (or lack thereof).

Or put another way: if I find near the end of an RPG that my spec becomes unusable where it was fine before, then I'm not a fan of "get more XP to spec into something else" as an answer. I don't want to play as another spec, and hastily speccing at the last minute feels clunky, to my mind.

As to finite XP, I'm actually perfectly fine with that, myself.

(See also: don't allow me to spec into something, even at the start, that isn't viable. I still recall Dungeon Siege II allowing multi-classing... and then warning one in the tutorial to not multi-class.)

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Feb 6th 2024 at 12:53:07 PM

Rewatching The Lost Boys really makes me wish someone had been able to make a game that recaptures the feel of the first part of Bloodlines.

Edited by Mullon on Feb 17th 2024 at 8:35:51 AM

Santa Monica may be the best section of any game ever.

Yeah, Santa Monica is the best portion of the game, showing so much potential for what is to come. The world-building in the beginning does a good job of introducing us to the World of Darkness a little at a time, while the early quest-chain also promises a much wider world to experience than we actually get.

Edited by Mara999 on Feb 18th 2024 at 11:55:02 AM

As to finite XP, I'm actually perfectly fine with that, myself

I am not. While I agree that being able to spec in everything is problematic, I don't like it the idea of having a progression cap. Kinda reduce the game's lifespan.

I mean, it's an immersive sim. Who cares about "lifespans"? This isn't a live service game, you're supposed to play the game and then finish it. Not speccing every skill doesn't actually stand in the way of that.

Not to mention that these sorts of games are designed to be replayable, so one way or another you'll fill every skill if you like the game. And if you don't then it's a moot point.

To each his own. Even with solo games I prefer when they live as long as possible and still allow you to continue doing stuff even after finishing the endgame.

That's fair--as you say, to each their own!

For myself, as long as the game is designed such that I don't hit the level-cap too early, I'm likely to be happy.

I'm not really one to try to keep an RPG or immersive sim going indefinitely; I want to complete it, in due course.

And indeed, I tend to find that once I complete the main quest, I feel my time with the game (or with that playthrough, rather) to be done; my interest falls off sharply.

Further, I don't want infinite procedurally-generated side-quests; I want a limited number of hand-made side-quests, ideally each different from the others.

(As you may imagine, I'm not really interested in a certain type of "open world" game.)

This is not and has never been how immersive sims work. They have a specific plot in mind and then they end.

Bloodlines didn't do this, nor did any of the Deus Ex's, System Shocks, Dishonored 1 and 2, or Prey. Frankly if you want an endless game then you came to the wrong genre. Immersive sims are not sandboxes designed to spend an endless amount of time in. Games like that have their place but it's not here, if you want it I'd recommend one of Bethesda's or Ubisoft's games.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 19th 2024 at 7:21:18 AM

Technically, there's nothing to say that one couldn't make a sandbox Immersive Sim.

After all, the genre is defined primarily by its mechanics, none of which really preclude being part of a sandbox.

(It is unusual at the moment, however.)

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Feb 19th 2024 at 6:02:14 PM

This is not and has never been how immersive sims work. They have a specific plot in mind and then they end.

Bloodlines didn't do this, nor did any of the Deus Ex's, System Shocks, Dishonored 1 and 2, or Prey. Frankly if you want an endless game then you came to the wrong genre. Immersive sims are not sandboxes designed to spend an endless amount of time in. Games like that have their place but it's not here, if you want it I'd recommend one of Bethesda's or Ubisoft's games.

Uh... I am honestly not following you. I never thought of Bloodlines as an immersive sim (mostly because I didn't even know that type of game existed until you mentioned it prompting me to goggle it). I think of it as an Action Roleplaying game, which is the genre it's defined as on wikipedia and most sources I could find.

If you consider it an immersive sim by virtue of it focusing on the player's choices (which from what I gathered seems to be what defines them), then I'd like to point out to you that by that logic, Skyrim enters in that cathegory - and you can most definitely keep playing it after finishing the story. So I am not sure your point is accurate.

But to answer you, what I do want is a RPG game about Vampire the Masquerade. I will obviously still play it regardless of if it ends after the endgame or not, but I'd just prefer to still be able to explore the world and hang around in the game after that. So please don't try to assume this game is not for me just for wanting a Playable Epilogue.

Edited by Theokal3 on Feb 19th 2024 at 8:13:28 AM

Our own page on the Immersive Sim indicates that Bloodlines is one of those "on some Immersive Sim lists but not on others".

That is, some hold it to be one, others don't.

Fair enough I suppose. I guess it's a game that's kinda in the middle?

I think that's fair.

It has elements that are Immersive Sim-y, and elements that are not, so whether it's an Immersive Sim or not depends on how the individual weighs those elements, I suppose.