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MRA or not, burning her book is just distasteful.

Given the "Women Against Feminists" thing that's come up, maybe there needs to be a new movement, one where men and women can come together for a common, more sensible cause - something like "Equalists" (no relation to the Legend Of Korra organization)

They're not pro-women, they're not pro-men, they're pro-people; and they advocate for equal opportunity and equal treatment under the law for both men and women alike.

They exist. They're called Egalitarians.

And they call out shitheads from both sides, thank you.

I kinda hope so. Just in general.

Lots of transphobia, classism and racism from her. Not a great deal of intersectionality.

edited 31st Aug '14 1:58:12 PM by unnoun

Well, that's no reason to call her a "feminazi". "A woman of good taste" maybe, or "someone who lacked kindling".

Yeah, she's way out on the conservative, gender essentialist, right wing of the feminism spectrum if she's even on there at all.

Women Against Feminists (at least going by the silly tumblr with the same name) would be more aptly named "Women Against Right-wing-created Strawmen". No, there's no reason to create a new movement, feminism is just fine.

Christina Hoff Sommers might not be too intellectually honest, but if you're going to burn a book and then brag about it to the world, then you're not someone who I think is worth taking seriously. (And I'm not going to be changing my mind on that.)

Plus why would buy a book just to burn it? Seems like a pretty big waste of money if you ask me. (Unless you're Linkara)

"I want to destroy this book, but I also want to support the capitalist system and give its author money for my ownership of it!"

Kind of reminds me of when people were burning Beatles records back when John made that "more popular than Jesus" comment. If I recall correctly, they jokingly encouraged it because all it would do is bring in more album sales for them.

"Women Against Feminists (at least going by the silly tumblr with the same name) would be more aptly named "Women Against Right-wing-created Strawmen". No, there's no reason to create a new movement, feminism is just fine. "

I can already tell this is going to be a waste of my time because I know you're not even going to read these but

Bull.

Fucking.

Shit.

Ever wonder why so many women don't publicly refer to themselves as feminists?

Because a disturbing amount of women who claim to be all about women being able to act and think for themselves have a nasty habit of claiming those who don't join them can't act or think for themselves.

And also because they don't want to be associated with this.

Because I've actually seen it happen. Read the links.

And another thing, I didn't say ALL feminists, I said "a disturbing amount" of them, so don't give me that blanket statement line.

edited 31st Aug '14 10:12:50 PM by takashi.0

Yes, clearly a vocal minority within a gigantic movement is the voice of the entire movement and everyone who falls under that movement is exactly like that. Stop making blanket statements.

And those statements in the last one, the pictures of the girls holding up paper and notebooks with words on them, miss the entire point of what feminists are fighting for there. They make efforts to allow women to have a voice and a choice, for men and women to both be on equal planes, for women to not worry about their sex lives being the target of derision, to prevent them from becoming victims. Like, how do you miss the point so much on that.

edited 31st Aug '14 10:08:51 PM by Odd1

No.

Also not all those links are what I'd call accurate, since some of them include stuff like "they focus on THIS issue instead of THIS issue."

It's almost like movements are capable of taking on multiple movements, even minor ones. Just because they don't affect you personally doesn't mean they're not important.

I think that if we could compare the percentages of extremists within the big vague thing that is feminism to the percentage of extremists within the significantly smaller and more unified men's rights movement, there would be a very serious disparity in terms of how many people I wouldn't want to come within ten feet of. How many MRA groups versus how many feminist groups, by proportion rather than number, use outright hateful rhetoric, or aim to restrict the rights of others rather than expand them?

When I look at the crap that I might have to go through as a man and compare that to what I see women go through, I don't think, "I am so oppressed!" What I think is, "There are some things that are deeply unfair in this society and this world, but women have to deal with a lot more of them." So I try to help out everyone, but I recognise who is weakest and try to help them. And that does not just mean women, by the way.

As for why more women are not self-identified feminists, it is because the image that certain conservative types like to paint of feminists is wildly distorted and only reflects the kind of bullshit that you here from shrill throwbacks and obnoxious teenagers. That, and there are indeed women in the world who do not care if women have fewer rights than men, or else believe it to be a good thing, whether they say as much or not. Internalised misogyny is a thing.

Maybe it's because I'm queer and I've seen a lot of deeply messed up reactionary rhetoric from these groups—whether against people like me or people in general—but I think that the masculist subculture has some problems that run much deeper than a matter of image, and I think that treating them as equals and opposites to mainstream feminist organisations is giving many of them all too much credit. The false dichotomy there is like saying that the Democratic Party and the Tea Partiers are equally extreme and misguided. Some of the folks involved are reasonable enough, but the reasonable ones are not the guiding lights here.

Christina Hoff Sommers is a neocon shill working for the American Enterprise Institute, a pressure group backed by the Koch brothers that works to bribe academics into downplaying institutionalised discrimination, global warming, market failure, and anything else that might negatively affect their sponsors' bottom line. Every time I see someone hold her up as a 'reasonable feminist', a little piece of my soul dies.

I mean, christ, she's an A Voice For Men columnist. That should tell you something, no?

edited 1st Sep '14 4:35:29 AM by Iaculus

Never heard of it. ^note : A Voice of Men, that is

And people like Andrea Dworkin are somehow better?

And also, just because she's an asshole about other things doesn't make her wrong about feminism. Because she's fucking right in that regard.

edited 1st Sep '14 6:58:08 AM by Takashi.0

And also, just because she's an asshole about other things doesn't make her wrong about feminism. Because she's fucking right in that regard.

She's an advocate of 'maternal feminism' who believes men and women are biologically programmed to be 'equal but different' and should embrace and celebrate traditional gender roles. In other words, women should Stay in the Kitchen, because that's where they're most truly empowered. Some rundowns. This is what she believes the 'radical takeover' of feminism has unfairly steered the movement away from.

Still want to defend her on this?

As for A Voice For Men, they're the biggest and most notorious MRA site on the 'net, running awareness campaigns that can be helpfully summed up by this poster on their Facebook page. RationalWiki's rundown on its owner, Paul Elam, is illustrative.

edited 1st Sep '14 9:02:27 AM by Iaculus

Honestly, in my experience, MRA people often seem to be men who are bad with women and blame the women for that. Or they got suckered into the mindset after a bad breakup.

there are legitimate societal issues that come with being a man but it doesn't necessarily have to do with "rights", per se. gender issues in general are complex things that harm everybody.

Yeah, it's just the main thing that a lot of issues for men...come from other men. There is a lot of gender policing amongst them, and it only gets worse if you add racism or transphobia or ableism to the mix.

Pretty much what those two said.

Also, I've found several sources that suggest that Christina Hoff Sommers isn't the most intellectually honest person, either, often relying on anecdotes, cherry picking, and misrepresenting data.