Recommend me a gateway western RPG.

Travis, Vt MB isn't a newbie-friendly game without extensive modding =) But it can (and will) serve as a gateway if the person in question is not averse to slashers =) I personally would recommend Kot OR as it has this fine blend of engrossing story, tolerable controls and lack of hysterical panic in its combat.

Videogames do not make you a worse person... Than you already are.

Because Fallout was the first CRPG I ever played? I mean, that was my gateway. At the age of ten, i didn't find it too difficult or frustrating.

edited 21st Apr '11 4:18:45 AM by RPGenius

-*shrug*

I certainly didn't find Fallout terribly difficult or frustrating either, and I hadn't played a lot of Western RPG games at that point either (although I was older than ten )

Neverwinter Nights 1 Knights of the Old Republic Mass Effect 1&2 Deus Ex

Neverwinter Nights and it's expansion Hordes of the Underdark is a good solid sword swinging RPG. It's essentially D&D 3.0 the game. It's a lot of fun and everything you do will have a point. It's very much a classical WRPG.

Knights of the Old Republic is the WRPG INNNN SPAAAAACE! It's also awesome, well written, and you're a freaking Jedi. If you don't want to put up with the early non-Jedi nonsense download the Padawan mob that lets you start out as a Jedi, kind of breaks the game a little but screw it, it's fun.

Mass Effect, Mass Effect is awesome. Mass Effect 1 is more in the vein of a traditional RPG but with a TPS for combat. It's the best $20 you'll spend on Steam ever. Mass Effect 2 dumbs down the RPG stat whoring and inventory whoring elements of the traditional WRPG but makes up for it with even better writing and enough story that you'll eventually forget them stripping down the more traditional RPG elements. And in November you'll get Mass Effect 3 which should give you ME 2's awesome story telling and visuals with ME 1's deeper skill system all while fighting an ancient eldritch abomination from beyond the stars intent on exterminating all sapient life in the galaxy.

Deus Ex is actually a lot like Mass Effect 2. It was one of the first big games that used RPG not as the main ingredient but as a secret sauce to marinate another genre in. It's a FPS/RPG. It's well written and fun to play and actually delivers on the promise of letting you play how you want to. Smooth talker, sneaky, gun crazy nut, each is equally valid in Deus Ex.

Something Tycho said about RPG's stuck with me. It's becoming less of a distinct genre and more of a sauce you marinade another genre in and I for one think that's awesome. If you want to get into WRP Gs then things like Mass Effect that aren't "classic" RPG's are something you need to look at because that's where the genre is headed.

"Tyyr's a necessary evil. " Spirit

@Travis: Because like I said, it was my first WRPG ever. And honestly, only second one is hard to start, first one maybe if you don't have a manual and don't know what does what. Or if you create character that is horrible in combat and keep getting killed by rats because you can't hit them and they hit you. Though, that isn't that hard after you figure it out.

See, the idea that the genre is heading in the Mass Effect direction depresses me. Those are, very technically, RP Gs. If the OP wants a true WRPG experience, surely one of the classics is the best way to go about it?

Yeah, Mass Effect is essentially a shooter now, since they strip out a lot of elements in the first game that made it an RPG.

The lack of Wizardry in this thread makes me cry.

Death is a companion. We should cherish Death as we cherish Life.

I thought Wizardry lost its right to be called a gateway RPG somewhen around the third or fourth non-Japanese game in the series because of its spiral into hardcoreness?

Videogames do not make you a worse person... Than you already are.

What are these hybrids with? Because if it's something like WRPG/FPS, then I'm going to be unfamiliar with both genres.

Well, the thing with Nethack is that it is...

• very lightweight. Any computer can run it. It can be downloaded and set up in minutes. And I can even play it anywhere I have a text-based Telnet connection, because there's the nethack.alt.org server.
• freeware. No need to jump through hoops to get it.
• easily playable. (NOTE: This isn't a big deal when I'm considering another game anyway; it just makes it easier to play this game.)
  • completely text-based. Requires no graphics hardware/software. Can alt+tab away or close it instantaneously.
  • turn-based; nothing timed or action-based. No need for reflexes or constant attention.
  • has no sounds.
• easy to learn. I'm serious; once you get a hang of the various commands, playing it is a piece of cake, because the interface is so simplistic.
• easy to restart. Sure, it's a very difficult game to win, but you get Death Is a Slap on the Wrist when you have no emotional connection to what's going on anyway and you end up enjoying humorous YASDs all the time.

Perhaps I'll look into this.

I thought they were pretty complicated games with a steep learning curve. And relatively slow gameplay as well.

VTMB is like a hybrid RPG/FPS or RPG/Zelda style 3rd person action game depending on whether you use guns or melee weapons.

"engrossing story, tolerable controls and lack of hysterical panic in its combat. "

Only the last one has any truth (and even then, the combat sucks, you sit there waiting for the characters to execute the 2000th attack command you've issued while the 20th group of mooks in the level that present no threat (just like the last 19 have their HP slowly reduced because apparently pesudo-turnbased where your orders are executed 6 seconds after they are given and your orders don't matter is so much better than actual turn-based) The story is dull. There is one point when it even blips interesting, and that doesn't change anything about the rest of the story. The wheel menu for combat and list-based inventory with minimal sorting options are a horrible interface latter on (you have like, 8 items on screen at once and the game has infinite inventory, and your sorting options are limited to something along the lines of "weapon" "armor" "datapad" and "consumeables", this makes finding the datapad you just picked up a mess, as I don't think you can sort by "newest first"). Also: Dantooine has horrible optimization for some reason and regularly slows down (turning off grass helps, but does not eliminate it) and slows down computers made years after its release. Also iffy is how long you spend running through cleared areas. Stay away from Kot OR.

General thoughts on good games to try

• Gothic+Gothic 2 with Not R: Neat character based advancement where your character fights better upon gaining more skill with a weapon instead of just more damage, decently non-linear, the controls take a bit of getting used and the early combat is (purposefully) painful, as your character has no idea what he is doing. Also very hard, something rather uncommon for wRPGs.
• Arcanum: Aside from the awful combat, it is an overall solid wRPG with a variety of character options being viable, large number of quests with multiple paths and very few fetch quests. Cons are (again) the bad combat (unlike Kot OR though, it at least has the decey to have one of the 2 combatants die very quick, instead of 5 turns of hacking the bad guys HP off while he can't hurt you). My personal pick.
• Fallout+Fallout 2: The codifier of most RPG conventions, but has the one overwhelming issue that everything is accompanied by slow animations, even with the settings turned to make things as fast as possible and thus gets old quick. About par with Arcanum.
• Deus Ex: Likely one of the best examples of choices mattering for the long term, instead of a reward and karma meter hit. All objectives have multiple pathes, and even mutliple pathes in the path. Every level has its own open gamespace and exploration is very well rewarded. Easily my favorite game of all time, but I wouldn't consider it a good example of a wRPG.

I'd also recomend Planescape Torment after you try a few, due to how different it is.

edited 21st Apr '11 11:24:45 AM by deuxhero

Kot OR was built for consoles and retains a lot of artefacts from that bloodline, yes. But it's good as a GATEWAY game in that it's as good a tutorial in how Fallout-legacy (or, if you prefer it that way, Bio Ware-style) games function as any AND it is easier to relate to due to being based on a well-established widely-known franchise.

Videogames do not make you a worse person... Than you already are.

No it isn't. Kot OR would leave the impression build choice, dialoge choice, action choice and nothing matters at all, which isn't true in anything but Kot OR.

Bioware games are very different from other western RP Gs, and always have been. They're almost a different subgenre that falls between western RPG and JRPG: They're fairly linear and choices are illusory for the most part (except for one or two game changers), and instead of exploring a well-realized fictional world, the focus is more on engaging a cast of colorful characters who really stand out instead of blending into the gameworld. I wouldn't say any of them would make good particularly gateway games for western RP Gs, but just about anyone who isn't too hypercritical can enjoy Mass Effect.

Also:

Extensive modding? You only have to install one patch, if you're going ot patch it at all (it's perfectly playable in version 1.2).

VTMB is THE gateway RPG.

I firmly stand against this idea that the gateway WRPG is a game that has heavily diluted the genre. Loved VTMB. It was made by Cain, Anderson and Boyarsky. I couldn't not. But ultimately, if you're looking to get into the WRPG genre, you play a true WRPG. Plus, when the OP has stated they want something turn based, then VTMB is already off the list.

To be a broken record: Fallout.

To be a different broken record: Maybe, Maybe, Maybe, Maybe.

Well, a gateway WRPG need not dumb down any features; it only need make them easily learnable/easy to understand and pick up.

Sneaky. Are you sure you should be playing Nethack at work?

I found the Nethack, Incursion and Dwarf Fortress control schemes to be rather more complicated than a standard western RPG though, particularly since Western RP Gs tend to have a tutorial level for you to play.

Live forever or die trying.

Any Fallout except New Vegas would work poorly as a gateway because it would be no different than just jumping into the genre. It's the quintessential RPG and about as obtuse as a western RPG can get while still being good. Hell, Arcanum and PST might even be more accessible because of faster RT combat.

Also, VTMB is no less a 'true' western RPG than Fallout &c. There is nothing diluted about. It has stats, dice rolls, C&C, and everything else which makes a western RPG. The turn-based combat and/or isometric perspectives are entirely superficial differences which have little bearing on the actual meat of the game which makes it an RPG. The only thing un-RPG-like about it is its severe railroading which is no worse than a Bioware game and a product of a severely rushed and unfinished development cycle.

Though I should say I agree with you, a good game doesn't need a gateway to be good. Anyone wondering what to play should just stop being a pussy and play the original Fallouts, PST, Arcanum, VTMB, etc.

edited 21st Apr '11 8:13:42 PM by Mammalsauce

I would highly recommend against Neverwinter Nights as a gateway game. It doesn't get more obtuse than a game where the manual never fully explains the stats you're supposed to be levelling. (It wasn't until years later that I found out melee hit rate was based off strength rather than dexterity. My 20-dex monk quite literally missed more often than she hit when attempting to punch a barn door.)

edited 21st Apr '11 10:57:14 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

While Kotor was probably my first WRPG, Fallout New Vegas was the game that made me go back and look over older rpgs. I'm working my way back slowly (taking on Witcher Enhanced, PS:T and NWN 2 before I move on to Fallout [I stopped as soon as i found myself dying in two seconds to a group of mantises...man I suck] and BG.)

Fallout 3 could work as an initial jump off before you head over to the far superior and more roleplayingy New Vegas.

edited 21st Apr '11 11:10:34 PM by ShadowScythe

And this thread devolves into yet another argument for or against Bio Ware games.

We're talking about determining a good game to get hooked on the genre, NOT a perfect specimen of the genre. Otherwise this thread would've been over the moment someone would've brought up Darklands. A game that has a pseudo-non-linear storyline, sensible tutorial, in-game game mechanics explanations and an engrossing storyline will suffice. Fallout would've worked 100% if it didn't need a tutorial (and a patch, preferrably).

Videogames do not make you a worse person... Than you already are.

Nah, skip 3 and go New Vegas. That way you won't be all, "Hurr the game is the same, this is an expansion pack durr" when you pick up Fallout New Vegas after playing 3. Fallout 3 is just too damn easy for even the most casual of RPG players.

EIGHT GLORIOUS SIDES

I've gotta admit, I'm slightly baffled by all the 'Fallout 1 is too hard' comments- it was, to the best of my recollection, the first WRPG I played, and it wasn't that confusing. You level up the skills you want to use (although levelling at least one skill that kills things is a very good idea... something that is hopefully obvious in an After the End Crapsack World), and most of the stats relate reasonably obviously to what they enhance...

It certainly fits comfortably into the 'turn based' paradigm, and the only thing that might not make it a great gateway WRPG is the rather unique setting- if you're looking for something 100% representative, you can't get much further from Medieval Stasis than an After the End that somehow manages to combine elements of 1984 and the 50s...

Also, @deuxhero: We get it, you don't like KOTOR. The horse is dead, the beatings can stop.

Well, K1 was okay (decent compromise between combat and talky but suffered from being Bioware cookie cutter), K2 was better in that Obsidian (more bugs, better story) way.

The stat itself tells you what that stat affects when you select it in chargen. And really, you should've taken weapon finesse at level 1. I knew I'd forgotten to play something. Thanks for the reminder.

Live forever or die trying.