When They Cry - Higurashi and Umineko

I liked Mion for being a really friendly, funny person who was pretty much always worthy of trust and always trusting. She did well with responsibility as well.

Whew Battler, that was a close shave you had there (at the end of the third episode).

That being said, I don't think that human-Eva was the culprit. Besides the factual problems (who killed Dr. Nanjo?), it doesn't make sense on an emotional level. Although I could buy — if barely — the possibility that Eva would kill the other siblings in order to keep the gold for herself, I can't accept the fact that she would have killed Hideyoshi or George. She had no motive to do so, and these were the most precious people in the world to her. If the narrative goes that she DID kill them, it would need to rely on shoddy character development to do so, which would be most displeasing to me.

The sad thing is, Battler had a really good counter to witch-Eva that he didn't make use of. He should have asked for clarification as to whether or not witches were human. It doesn't even matter what the witches countered with; if they said they were human, Battler could have then reminded them that there were 18 humans (all accounted for) on the island, so Nanjo couldn't have been killed by a witch, and if they said they were not human, he could have countered by reminding them that Nanjo was killed by a human, so he couldn't have been killed by a witch. This doesn't help to solve the mystery (besides proving that the red text is bogus, something I've suspected for a while), but it would have been a nice move.

Also, Lambadelta, um...'why don't you' wasn't a catchphrase of human-Eva, as far as I remember, so that doesn't really prove anything. If anything, I seem to recall Beato using the phrase more than anyone. Alternatively, Lambadelta could have just been being silly, but it's an interesting thought.

I still hold to my basic theory: witches are manifestations of people's hatred and despair that somehow manage to wreck havoc on the world; in order to prove witches don't exist (which would be a good thing for all concerned), Battler needs to figure out how to change the RULES; and to do this, he will have to find a way to bring the family together and have them love one another.

Just something for you to consider: the reason the red text was introduced in the first place is because Battler demanded a mechanic that allows him to reason. If you take that away, then you'll have nothing to trust because if you haven't noticed by now, the narrative isn't exactly trustworthy.

Speaking of the final mystery in Episode 3, do you think you can solve that? The solution is surprisingly easy.

And remember: Battler is incompetent.

edited 25th May '12 11:20:40 PM by LiberatedLiberater

The weird thing is, I trust the narrative more than the red text (not saying I trust the narrative completely).

And what do you mean by the final mystery? Who killed Nanjo?

Yeah, who killed Nanjo? All 18 people on the island are dead.

edited 26th May '12 12:47:14 AM by LiberatedLiberater

Assuming you're ruling out supernatural means, I have no idea. Not only does everyone seem to be accounted for, but I can't think of who would have a motive to kill Nanjo. The only person who I could even imagine considering it would be Eva if she was truly on a PSYCHOTIC KILLING RAMPAGE, but she seems to be well-watched in this case (and besides, as I said before, I don't see Eva as an indiscriminate killer.)

This brings up one of the ways I seem to be approaching this differently than most people — I took a quick look at some of the liveblogs (for the parts I had already read), and they seemed to be going about the mystery as 'what is logically possible'. Instead, I prefer to think about things in terms of 'what makes most narrative, emotional, and thematic sense' — even if it is technically possible to have a tricky solution that denies the supernatural, it's not worth considering it if it requires the protagonists acting out of character for no reason whatsoever. Part of the reason I keep turning to meta solutions is that they seem to be the best way of both leading the story to a satisfactory conclusion, by denying Beatrice a victory, while also keeping the integrity of the characters alive and bringing some sense of closure to their actions.

edited 26th May '12 4:02:26 AM by BokhuraBurnes

Well watched? Watched by who, Hideyoshi? Who says the narrative was telling the truth there?

I meant when Nanjo was killed, when she was watched by Battler.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I tend to believe the scene that had Hideyoshi caring for Eva actually took place. From what we know of Hideyoshi's character, it doesn't make sense that he would cover for her to go kill Rosa — while Eva is enough of a jerk to contemplate violence (even though I still don't think she would actually do it), Hideyoshi's too kind-hearted to go along with it. I will grant you, however, that Battler watching over Eva is more likely to be true than the Hideyoshi scene — the cigarette butt needs to be explained, and I have no reason to doubt Battler as a viewpoint character.

edited 26th May '12 8:03:10 AM by BokhuraBurnes

I dont recall that ever said. The Umineko wiki has no trace of it, either. Evatrice said:

Kinzo is dead

Krauss is dead

Natsuhi is dead

Hideyoshi is dead

George is dead

Rudolf is dead

Kyrie is dead

Rosa is dead

Maria is dead

Genji is dead

Shannon is dead

Kanon is dead

Gohda is dead

Kumasawa is dead

Nanjo is dead

The 15 people mentioned are dead

Battler is alive

Eva is alive

Jessica is alive

...But nobody said anything about all 18 being dead. For that matter, I don't recall the exact moment in which Evatrice said all this. Did she say it immediately after Nanjo was killed?

edited 26th May '12 8:48:13 AM by Crinias

It's not that Hideyoshi is lying, it's that Battler didn't see it himself. There's absolutely no proof it really occurred. Well, I'll leave it at that. Seeing you read the later episodes should be interesting.

Obviously, you can't trust the red text.

I'm not saying that the scene had to have happened, just that it's in-character for the couple and the deviation Battler suggested (Eva went out to kill Rosa and Maria, Hideyoshi covered for her) is not in-character. Given that, I tend to believe the scene happened.

edited 26th May '12 9:14:12 AM by BokhuraBurnes

Well, if the red text is a lie, then how is Battler supposed to be able to disprove witches?

Yeah, it's in character. As far as the solution goes, I don't really know for sure, so I don't need to worry about accidentally leaking too much information. However, who is to say that we truly know everything about the characters? And must one person have killed every other person?

The red truth only tells the truth.

As for the solution, I'm not entirely certain... but here's an idea that could work without any information from other Episodes. IF Evatrice said all those red truths some time after Nanjo died, then you could make this assumption: Someone killed Nanjo in front of him, with a shotgun, while he was inside the room and the culprit was outside the servant's room.

After killing him, they killed themselves. Since they would have done this after killing Nanjo, no red truth is contradicted. The red truths confirming the deaths only came after Nanjo was killed, so it could be that someone faked their death, allowing them to kill Nanjo with no suspicion falling on them. Well, it's one possible solution.

Derp, I just didn't bother listing them all down. [Don't read this, Bokhura] What I said is still true anyway, technically. Also, what you said is the trick to the red text in that part; I believe she said it after Nanjo was already killed.

And yes, The red truth tells only the truth. You're looking in the wrong places for things to distrust.

The red text only tells the truth.

You see proof of it later.

Technically, using The red tells only the truth is circular logic. But yeah, trust the red.

(Dont read this, Bohkura) Actually, what I meant by the timing was: did Evatrice say that immediately after she killed Nanjo or did some time pass between the murder and what she said?

If it was the latter, I could claim what I posted earlier (Edit: which i just realized is Battler's theory in EP4) could be true.

If she said it immediately after his death, it would require knowledge of the whole people/person thing to solve it, and with that you could probably solve everything else.

Even so, the theory I posted does not assume any particular person did it. If I had thought this up while reading EP 3 I still wouldn't know who the true culprit is.

Edit: Yeah, I just remembered that this theory is what Battler argued in EP4's Tea Party. Derp.

edited 26th May '12 11:39:45 AM by Crinias

To trust the red means to accept what the witch says. To accept what the witch says puts you under her spell. Make your own RULES, Battler.

Anyways, on to episode 4. I've heard this one drags a bit, which I'm not looking forward to. Hoping to see more Ange, though.

I know what you're doing wrong: you think that Battler is trying to deny the existence of witches in general, but what he's trying to deny is the existence of witches and magic on Rokkenjima at October 4-6, 1986. There's a crucial difference, because if he can't trust what Beatrice says in the meta world then there's no point to fighting over it.

Ok, I'm going to go through this only one more time. If I'm wrong (and it's more than likely I am), I'll have a good laugh at my stupidity later, but for now this is the theory I'm going with.

The meta world of course has rules that are different than the real world — Battler doesn't seem particularly bothered by Beatrice's presence there. On the other hand, the way I am conceptualizing things, what the characters do in the meta world can have an effect on the real world. This is a game about RULES, and both Battler and Beatrice should be trying to set the RULES so that their desired reality can come about. Blindly accepting the red text (which only Beatrice can use) gives her a leg up on how the RULES are designed. That doesn't mean that Battler can't use red text to point out contradictions, if the opportunity arises — but he also should realize that, as long as he accepts the red text, he's playing the witch's game, and this might prevent him from landing a killing blow or defending against one from Beatrice. (I can see Beatrice using the strategy of reserving false red text for when all else fails, for instance, and Battler needs to anticipate this possibility.)

I'm not saying that all of the red text is false — for all I know, everything in red text so far has been true. I'm just saying I trust it to the same extent I trust any other 'infallible' knowledge in the game (such as the narrative) — most likely to be true, but not to be accepted blindly. Never stop thinking, Battler.

In other matters, um, why is Maria on the witch page for the character sheet? That's a bit strange. And one more stray thought on the Nanjo case — I noticed that Nanjo went red on the character sheet immediately after he died, before Battler saw him. This seemed odd at the time, and I thought it an error — but maybe there's significance to it. I don't know what it would be though.

The red text is for reader convenience. There has to be some measure of 'this is what's true and that's all there is to it' at some point, so they arbitrarily added color text.

No comment on the rest of your theory.

edited 26th May '12 1:45:47 PM by Arha

Ah well, it looks like Episode 4 will answer all of your questions and confirm/deny your current theory, so I will no longer comment on it.

edited 26th May '12 1:46:49 PM by LiberatedLiberater

Btw, Rena 4eva

That was an interesting point with the possibility that Kinzo had already been dead, and so didn't count in the 18 people on the island. Come to think of it, I don't remember seeing him interact with anyone in the third episode (well, until he died). There are still some problems with the theory, and I'm not buying it completely ( wouldn't Jessica have noticed beforehand if Kinzo was dead?), but at least I like it better than the 'Eva is a psycho killer' theories.

But — waitwaitwaitaminute! I think I've figured everything out!

The Butler Did It. Well, maybe not the butler, but one of the -on servants who happened not to be on duty that day. Say there was one who secretly held a lust for power. He could lie low for a while, gaining Kinzo's trust while secretly manipulating divisions within the family. Then, when everyone was in one place, he could kill them all and take control of the gold and the other family resources.

But what about the locked doors and other mysteries? In a nod to Beatrice, it's possible he could have some magical powers. I'm not saying he's a witch, but maybe he could do something like teleport into a closed room, or use super strength to drive stakes into his assailants. Or, alternatively, he could just be a master thief.

In short, it's clear that Rokkenjima has been (blue text in spoiler — really) Hijacked by Ganon.

Now if only Battler can learn to play an ocarina...

Ahem, Battler's trying to deny magic occurring on the island on that weekend, not just witches.

Hm, you're done with Episode 4? I don't remember the "Kinzo is dead" theory being raised until the Tea Party.