When They Cry - Higurashi and Umineko

I accidentally saw the red truth about Kinzo that will come next. Though I have no context about it so it doesn't make sense. Okay, I'm just going to note that so far it hasn't been confirmed that they really are dead and that the crime isn't a fake. That seems like a trick Battler might pull on her. I'll wait and see. Admittedly, that's kind of cheating, but I don't think Battler is working to prove the witch so much as make Erika admit defeat.

edited 18th Aug '11 12:51:52 AM by Arha

Technically Battler is making this game to prove he understands the truth about Beatrice.

That is how I aways find it.

Nice theory. But I disagree. I don't think Eva would be that careless. I think it is Yasu who killed him. She didn't know Eva found the gold, so she was just continuing the murders. In fact, I believe she was the one who killed Krauss and Natsuhi as well, for the second twilight (she never noticed Rosa and Maria, or she would have staked them and taken the gun). I never even considered it was her who killed Nanjo, for some reason. I assumed it was Hideyoshi or Kyrie, who died of their previous wounds moments latter (EVA only accounted for the people dead after Nanjo's death). I guess it is possible it was Yasu, I guess, but I wonder then why she never staked him (she didn't staked George because Eva killed her).

Aaarh, ninja'd!

edited 18th Aug '11 12:55:32 AM by Heatth

Yeah, but what he's not trying to do is prove witches exist.

This is still his job, though. That is how Erika would admit defeat. Not that killing people has actually anything to do with witches.

But, yeah, the wording is quite important to figure out the truth of this Episode. No, I don't have the answer, but I have a very good guess.

edited 18th Aug '11 12:59:12 AM by Heatth

Well, if no one died but Erika is positive they did, then she can't win and witches don't have to exist. Oh, and just like the last game, even if they lived until now it's still possible for them to die later without contradictions. I'll keep that in mind as well.

edited 18th Aug '11 1:01:45 AM by Arha

I... guess? But then he would have to disprove Beato himself, which is not his wish. He msut follow Beatrice's rules, after all.

But, now you mentioned it. I wonder if the reason Shakanon followed Erika in the first place would be so they could go and kill everybody (except Battler, of course). Then Erika would be the actual 6th victim. By that logic they would have to, somehow, set themselves to the second twilight.

Spoilering that with the sentence preceding it is unkind.

edited 18th Aug '11 1:06:03 AM by Arha

Technically he dosn't have to murder anybody. Just present something "that can only be done with magic"

True. But would that prove he understood Beato's game?

Ah, you read that? Sorry. Really. It was something I thought due to what you posted, but it was not meant for you to read (yet, anyway).

I didn't read it. I really, really want to.

I'm almost feeling bad for Erika. But not really.

Good. You have no idea how I am relieved. It was a huge spoiler of Ep7.

You are feeling bad for Erika? Don't worry. If you are where I think you are, then this will pass. Soon.

No, I'm not really feeling bad for her. It's more like it will ruin the enjoyment of seeing her break down.

I felt pretty bad for Erika by the end.

Just sayin'

Me too, actually. But I feel bad for anyone with a good dramatic scene, apparently.

Good thing there is actually 16 (physical) persons on the island eh?

You know, Shannon sure seems to have quite the complicated love life. I'm assuming the promise had something to do with getting her off the island and love considering how often the word crops up and the way Battler is treating her. That means 4th game's piece Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon all appear to have different lovers. A four person love hexagon?

I hope Maria gets in on the action. Sakutaro is also Shannon.

edited 18th Aug '11 2:44:15 AM by Arha

Would you believe it gets even weirder?

Hey, Arha, how about a flowchart after you finish? It would help a lot of people.

A flowchart? Of what? Her love life?

I was thinking on a general Umineko chart relationship. Which, of course, would be very messy near Beatrice. (I say Beatrice because then it includes Kinzo in the weirdness)

It was just a joke, though. If I remember well, it was you who created the Negima relationship chart◊ wasn't it? It was a joke with that.

edited 18th Aug '11 3:17:12 AM by Heatth

Your link doesn't work, but yes, I did the Negima chart. For Beatrice... let's think... Aaaand now I'm thinking Shannon is Beatrice's daughter and therefore Kinzo's granddaughter... and daughter. Nice one, Kinzo. The baby that fell off the rocks, perhaps? After all, only Shannon knew Natsuhi's favorite season and the voice was specifically only assumed to be a young man's. ...Anyway, yeah, I could do it. I could make a chart of it. Each different personality of Shannon's would be their own character linked by a special line indicating that each character was the same person. Each personality would thus be treated as a different person. Makes it a lot easier.

Dear god, that would be the most spoileriffic relationship chart ever.

edited 18th Aug '11 3:17:06 AM by Arha

Yeah, it would be insanely spoilerific. Incidentally, if we are talking only about these alternate personalities, there is actually a small chart already. I linked it a few pages ago. It contain spoilers, so don't look at it yet.

Oh, since the whole Shkannon thing is more or less confirmed already (not really, but that doesn't really change in Ep7 either), can I talk about the first 4 episode's clues about that? You apparently missed that Battler never see Kanon and Shannon together for all the first 4 Episodes. Furthermore, he never sees the corps of one of them either (in Ep1 he never entered the shelter to see Shannon and in Ep3 he never went to the chapel to see Kannon). Even with other characters, Shannon and Kanon are usually only together near the servants or Kinzo. (you can read this spoiler. I only tagged it because I wasn't sure if you wished to go read back by yourself).

edited 18th Aug '11 3:42:38 AM by Heatth

I noticed that he never saw them together a little bit into this episode and it made me wonder if Erika had noticed anything about it. I noticed that Kanon vanishes when Shannon 'dies.' I had suspected that in the first case, Shannon's death was misidentified and that she was the mysterious zombie Kanon. But I don't think I thought about it any further than that because honestly I'm having trouble keeping track of who died when in pretty much all the episodes. I only remember bits and pieces of who died when.

edited 18th Aug '11 3:34:02 AM by Arha

Oh, it is normal to get confused, I believe. I can only get the order of deaths straight because I've been mentally revisiting each one ever since I finished Ep5 (and had to wait until Ep6 to be released) as well as reading other people's opinion about each game.

I never noticed Kanon and Shanon never interacted in public until Ep6 either. It was pointed to me when I read the Shkannon theory for the first time. I initially dismissed it because it would be too implausible (how are "they" fooling everyone? why? who knows?), but I couldn't oppose it anymore after Ep6.

PS:Btw, there is a scene in Ep5 where the two and Erika are in the same room: When she is accusing Natsuhi. However apparently Kanon is described as "being behind Gohda" and never gets to say anything (I should reread that scene, I guess).

edited 18th Aug '11 3:42:26 AM by Heatth

...Well, that's one way of causing a logic error I suppose.

Worst. Guest. Ever.

I guess the wedding and attempts to escape the room now make sense.

edited 18th Aug '11 4:16:20 AM by Arha

See, I said any sympathy you could have for Erika would vanish? I am personally still trying to come with a rational human explanation for why the fuck she would do such absurd. "Stupid accident" is the gentler I could come with. "She is freaking nuts" is the most tempting one, however.

From the meta point of view, however, I can only say she is (Axe)Crazy Awesome, really.

edited 18th Aug '11 4:28:24 AM by Heatth