Team Fortress 2

Sniper is fine as is due to his insane skill ceiling and poor close range capabilities. I’d prefer the bots be dealt with instead of nerfing Sniper into the ground.

Poor close range capabilities, in theory. In reality, he doesn't suffer from Arbitrary Minimum Range, so a skilled player can dish out 150 damage point blank. He's hardly helpless.

I'd nerf the Bazaar by making it lose a head when you miss, reducing your charge rate. Makes it require consistent skill to take advantage of, not just getting a couple headshot kills per life after which it's a direct upgrade.

The amount of skill required to do that consistently borders on advanced rocket jumping.

I would not call myself a particularly good Sniper and have gone on massive tears with just the stock gun. The class is way easier to play than you'd think, especially when the punishment for failing is borderline nonexistent because you're usually holed up in the back of the map behind your team and hard to reach.

The fact that the best answer to Sniper is another Sniper is also a problem.

Also, Jarate + Bushwacka autokilling most classes. Even if you're not using that combo, Sniper has an inherently high crit rate on melee due to how the system works.

Edited by Karxrida on Feb 13th 2023 at 6:57:54 AM

Sniper's balance in casual at this point is an... interesting nut to crack.

We agree with what feels like a general consensus that his pubstomping potential is a bit too high. We'd say that is more a problem of how bad matchmaking is right now adjusted against how good Sniper mains have gotten — especially in terms of their access to institutional knowledge [i.e., resources on how to perform well as Sniper, where to stand, etc.], plus at least a little bit in terms of lots of current map design frankly giving Sniper a bit too easy of a time to perform well in in the first place..

That's mostly not the fault of the class, but, I will say, I think the class could stand to have a little bit of a readjustment.

Like, an overly skilled [vs. the general skill of the server they're in] Soldier, Demo, or Spy can hold games hostages all by themselves as much as an equally skilled Sniper... But the nature of Sniper means that, if he's allowed by their opponents, their teammates, and the map to set up on a strong sightline, then they are difficult to just interact with meaningfully, let alone dislodge or disable.

Honestly? Where we think he needs adjustment in is in mid range, rather than long or close.

Cuz like, while landing a close-range headshot is something you can get good at — it remains difficult and variable that it's never gonna be consistently reliable. And hey, if Sniper's close enough to quickscope you at close range, they're close enough you can shoot them real good too — it's a parity interaction.

On the other hand, Sniper's dominance at long-range feels, well, totally sensible. He's the Sniper, that's his job. Where Sniper feels overly tuned here feels more like an issue with the maps than the class, honestly — if you have access to something other than the lane the Sniper's camping, you can just take the flank. (The problem with players being unwilling to avoid shoving their face into a Sniper lane, on the other hand, goes back to matchmaking...)

The real problematic places we find is the mid/far-mid range — like the range at which when you're coming close to approaching the Sniper on a flank, but not close enough to really significantly damage them... But, if they notice you, they can just snap quickscope you, and you don't get to do anything about it. That's where a Sniper playing well can just feel bad to be on the other end of. You essentially are doing what you're supposed to do, and getting punished for it.

What we'd do is maybe give Sniper Rifles some degree of damage fall-off that reduced with charge — so like, at midrange, a quickscope headshot does, like 100-120 rather than 150. That'd be enough to make the difference in a lot of those midrange engagements. This would also effect Sniper's long-range engagements of course, but in that situation, a Sniper can more easily spend time charging up a shot. It would reduce their efficiency in holding down a lane, but not so much that they wouldn't still be their rightful strongest position.

Edit: Tho also, fuck Jarate + Bushwacka. Jarate is already best in slot and would remain so even if its recharge was nerfed. Bushwacka in context of what Jarate is and how it works is just braindead, and also benefits from melee hitreg in this game being a detestable nightmare.

Edited by RegisteredUser on Feb 13th 2023 at 11:43:12 AM

Remember that critical hits ignore damage falloff, so you'd have to give it the same "critical hit falloff" stat the Ambassador has.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Feb 13th 2023 at 12:52:49 PM

Sniper not being able to crit headshot at close range would be neat. Make those minicrits if anything. And Jarate+Bushwacka is pretty much a last stand that requires you to go melee with a damage vulnerability as a 125 HP class. You WILL get oneshot if they see you coming, and it got massively nerfed when the vulnerability went from melting down, to everything wrecking you (seriously, 20% damage vulnerability turns most of the 2-shots close range moments into one shots: grenades leave you with 5 HP, but both rockets and scattergun meatshots turn into oneshots at effective jarate combo range, a Pyro will just airblast you out of melee range while melting you down, and even Spies if they don't panic have an evened out outcome, as now the revolver kills in just 2 rather than 3 shots. It got surprisingly improved balance-wise, and Jarate is best used as team support rather than self support).

(The Ambassafor did not deserve such a nerf when the Diamondback is a thing. Rather than the falloff convulted solution, make long range headshots minicrits, and make the Diamondback fire slower and store minicrits instead. And while we are at it, the Enforcer needs some retooling)

Edited by Eriorguez on Feb 14th 2023 at 11:58:34 AM

Personally I'm fine with the Amby nerf. Sure, it takes skill, but I don't think that's enough to justify being so much more powerful where Spy is traditionally weak, AKA any time he doesn't have the element of surprise. It made him almost have no real weakness outside of low HP (and even that could be circumvented with the Kunai and Dead Ringer). Stock revolver is as strong a ranged option as he deserves.

Diamondback, certainly, also deserves a nerf for the same reasons. But it doesn't bug me quite as much as the pre-nerf Amby, since you at least have to do some Spy things before getting access to that power. You can't just walk out of spawn with a discount sniper rifle in your pocket.

Nerf Jarate+Bushwacka to only be able to one shot light classes and maybe give Sniper a damage ramp-up on headshots (and even then I don’t think quickscoping is a problem). Sniper’s best counter being another Sniper is also fine. I don’t think Sniper should be nerfed into the ground because of the bots.

Minor tangent: I really hate how much Meet Your Match fucked up causal servers. No more Team Scramble if teams are unbalanced (why?!?) or the ability to switch teams if you got autobalanced and the slot is open so you can play with friends or choose if you're attacking/defending. People just dip immediately if they get autobalanced, which leads to a vicious cycle that kills servers.

I think interactivity does have a major impact. If your team is being stomped by a good Solider, Demo, or Spy you can still do something about them like switch to Pyro and/or communicate to minimize the impact of a Spy. Like I said earlier, the only real way to deal with a holed up Sniper is to also go Sniper and possibly ask a Vaccinator Medic to pocket you to ensure you win duels.

I still feel like the Sniper is kind of antithetical to the way TF 2 is designed as a shooter. Damage falloff, bullet spread, and the way class loadouts work all encourage the majority of confrontations to take place at mid-to-close range, and most classes don't have any way to meaningfully interact outside of that range (unless you like spamming the Scorch Shot). Sniper just kind of spits on that with an infinite range hitscan weapon with no bullet spread or damage falloff.

Taking the flank isn't always an option on some good maps everyone likes, such as Upward. The entire starting area of Upward can easily be locked down by a Sniper, or god help you two. Plus Snipers can like. Move. Or maybe their teammates are camping the flank like they're supposed to.

I have had countless games ruined by human Sniper players. Stifling bots is more of a nice bonus to me.

Meet Your Match kinda turned me off to the game.

I liked the chaos of just hopping on and off of public servers mid-game and goofing off.

As a self-admitted Team-stacker, I had absolutely no interest in matchmaking. Especially when you keep joining teams with no Medics because people apparently don't like winning.

I’ve had just as many times where I’ve gotten crushed by good players on other classes, not just Sniper. One match of Dustbowl I played had a Heavy-Medic combo that completely crushed the team I was on by themselves. Nerf the Bizarre Bargain and Jarate+Bushwacka combo yeah but don’t harshly nerf Sniper.

Once I was on a 2Fort server against a Sniper with a 140 KILLSTREAK. He had three pocket medics, a personal Sentry and Dispenser, and a Pyro sweeping his nest. He was totally unkillable.

After several hours, my team finally thought to push underground and take the intel where he was completely helpless to stop us.

x2 It was Dustbowl. Of course a competent Heavy + Medic combo is going to destroy the map when it's full of small chokepoints that make it easy to mow people down with the minigun.

A few days ago, I went onto Sawmill for the first time in weeks. My instinct to pick Sniper kicked in, and I hopped over to the roof across from BLU spawn. It took the enemy team far too long to pay attention to my camping shenanigans before a Demoman sticky-jumped over to me.

I don't really use Jarate, but I do feel that most other secondary items pale in comparison to the Cozy Camper. Why worry about both health and ammo when you can just worry about ammo?

I’m very inconsistent with Sniper. One time I did so well on 2Fort that I was kicked for being a bot. Most of the time I miss easy shots.

Just reduce HS damage to 125. Now 150 class doesn't die instantly, and only class that dies instantly deserve every death because they have every speed and movement advantage they have. Heavy can even poke their head because it takes 3 HS if sniper don't hard scope.

The blog has been edited to say holiday-sized-update instead of update-sized-update. A little disappointing, but permanent maps are still nice.

Edited by Zeromaeus on Feb 14th 2023 at 1:37:03 PM

Sniper's damage threshold is designed to one-shot Medics with any headshot or a charged bodyshot, and one-shot overhealed heavies with a fully charged headshot. It is MEANT to stop Heavy-Medic pairs, like Spy. It is not meant to oneshot a Scout at close range.

Minicrit headshots at a close range would be fair, but the 450 damage is a thing for a reason.

It is not like the community doesn't fixate on stuff from time to time. Poor axtinguisher allowing the Pyro to excell at the range Pyro was supposed to be a monster, and the bunch of nerfs that weren't needed as the issue was airblast, which eventually got fixed. Poor Ambassador getting run into the ground while the Diamondback just outdoes it and the vanilla revolver.

Also, been playing in Uncletopia rather than Valve servers since around the first lockdown. Far better experience, feels similar to old community servers, would recommend. Don't care about contracts anyway, and pre-My M Valve servers were already bad experiences anyway.

Edited by Eriorguez on Feb 15th 2023 at 12:58:40 PM

While Uncletopia is an overall better technical experience, its main issue is that people playing there are on the whole much more competent and the average skill ceiling is much higher because of it. For the newcomers - or people who despite playing this game for over ten years are still bad, like yours truly - that makes it a bit of a harder sell.

Minicrit headshots at close range would also be really good for the Huntsman because keeping the ability to defend yourself at closer ranges would be far more valuable. It'd be a full-on sidegrade instead of just a debatably-sidegrade meme weapon.

It's true. I was starting to get worried I've fallen off, but no... Uncletopia players are just generally a lot more competent than casual players, so top scoring is significantly harder. There are exceptions, of course... I had a game the other day in an Uncletopia server where I was able to top score basically just W+M1ing.

Addendum: Even if the Huntsman gets the same nerf, it still charges really fast and would do 162 damage up close, one-shotting the light classes and Medic while leaving Demo, Pyro and Soldier low enough to be cleaned with your SMG.

A close range fully charged rifle minicrit does 203 damage as well, so, yeah, if you can pull it out it isn't wasted, but a close range minicrit quickscope would do 68 damage. Or, a melee hit. More than half of a scout's health, but not an instakill.