The Walking Dead

"Yeah, we're gonna blow up soon, already in lockdown... lulz."

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How could you possibly not portray someone who did what he did as the bad guy? Just curious.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Well, he'd certainly been through a lot and likely wasn't sane at that point, so I kinda felt bad for him. The guy gave up on life.

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Sure, you can feel sorry for him. But not giving the others the choice was just plain wrong. I don't see a way to portray that positively.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

CCOA-Mercy Kill for all of them. I know why too but I can't say because well spoilers. I just hope they leave the farm soon and move on to the next big area. Lots of stuff starts happening then too.

As they say in the series he 'Opted Out'

Who watches the watchmen?

That's sort of the problem. Inviting a group of people to your suicide and not warning them about it isn't something you can do and maintain Good Guy Greg status.

I sympathize as well. I think in this scenario a lot of people would rather just check out than live in that world. The problem is that he didn't bother telling anyone else that they'd just joined his suicide pact whether they liked it or not.

"Tyyr's a necessary evil. " Spirit

Yeah, there's definitely no defending that part. I suppose you could say that he was just trying to put them out of their misery because "he knew best", but still...

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^^Doesn't work, since he has no precognition. He doesn't know what the future holds for them and has no way to know for sure that this is a better option.

And even if he did, he has no right to make that choice for a group of strangers who are more or less in sound mind.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

You know, I have a feeling Dale will be perfectly okay with Rick's actions(as opposed to his feelings about Shane's). Even if they amount to the same thing...

Uhh... what? It was a clean shoot, the guy went for the gun on the counter and Rick quick drew and blasted him between the eyes. Second guy was bringing his shotgun up and Rick nailed him too.

Was the Dale/Lori conversation weird to anyone else? While Dale is spot on with what he's thinking how does he logically come to that conclusion with zero to go on?

edited 13th Feb '12 4:58:57 AM by Tyyrlym

"Tyyr's a necessary evil. " Spirit

The first guy could have been going for the gun, or for the alcohol... The man's dead, so his opinion on the matter really doesn't matter at this point. The second guy must die after that, though. For no reason other than because he thinks Rick is going to shoot him too(which he did, so... proven right). It really doesn't help that Rick was preparing himself to shoot the guy(re:going for his own gun) three times during that situation.

If anything, Rick's situation is worse... If only because it wasn't so "spur of the moment"...

Should be noted, I believe both situations are justified, and they needed to be done. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy that's going to come from Dale of saying one is okay, but not the other(assuming the they tell anyone at the farm)...

You can get there if you believe Shane is a cold son-of-a-bitch who would kill someone(or leave them to die) to ensure his own survival... Especially since Shane always evades answering any questions on the incident of Otis' death, while always bringing it back to "I saved Carl."

edited 13th Feb '12 5:40:01 AM by Swish

No, I've seen the gif of the scene. The guy went for the gun and was picking it up to point at Rick. Rick reacted to the guy attempting to shoot him. The second guy's death was rather inevitable at that point. The clean way is how it went down, he was fumbling for his shotgun to kill Rick. The bad way, well would you let the guy away, knowing he likely has friends, knows you live nearby, and now has a grudge against you?

Dave Navarro offered the most insightful comment on Talking Dead in that the most tension we've had in a long time has come from the interaction of five completely human survivors without a zombie in sight.

There's a great big yawning void between suspecting that Shane might have in some way caused Otis' death and detailing exactly how it went down supposedly based on nothing but gut instinct. There are a lot of scenarios that would result in Otis dead and Shane getting away that aren't Shane intentionally leaving Otis wounded as bait.

"Tyyr's a necessary evil. " Spirit

Detail some.

Please.

Tyyrlym, again, I have no problem with what went down... I agree with it... Really, my only issue is that Rick was intending to kill the two the moment he stood up, and was just waiting for a justification. Seriously. Rick was never going to let them walk out the door at that point... My point is that there is no difference between that, and what Shane did... But it won't seem so, once Dale hears the story... Because he likes one, and thinks the other is the scum of the earth.

Have to agree with that, and ask for an example... You know, something more "believable" than Otis sacrificing himself to save Shane and Carl.

edited 13th Feb '12 3:47:54 PM by Swish

Well, Lori really grabbed that old Idiot Ball this week and ran hard with it..

Seriously?

Well lets see, they split up to get more supplies and Otis gets wounded or cut off and Shane leaves him instead of going for him. At some point Otis gets attacked and bitten and Shane finishes him off. Shane just flat out shoots Otis dead for what he did. They split up to enact their get away plan and Otis just never shows up again. Hell, how about Otis gets wounded and Shane leaves him, not finishing him off to use him as bait to get away.

Plenty of scenarios leave him complicit in Otis' death to a degree he wouldn't want to admit to. Dale immediately spouts off EXACTLY what happens like he read the script.

There is a very big difference between Shane and Rick's actions. Shane admittedly killed Otis in cold blood. Someone who had been trying to help them. I don't make excuses for Shane, he's an asshole, but at the time, given the circumstances, either one of them was going to die or they both would. It was justified, if incredibly dickish. Rick on the other hand was more or less cornered by these two. He didn't seek them out, they found him. Now instead of helping they immediately start down a confrontational path in the questioning. They're armed, demanding to be taken to the farm, and have an indeterminate number of friends they'll be brining with them and Rick has to assume they'll be armed as well. In other words it's looking like an armed take over of the camp is planned. I don't think Rick wanted or was looking for an excuse to kill them. I think he realized the kind of guys they were and that this was very likely to end horribly for him and his. So he was hoping to be able to dissuade them and get them off their case but he was ready if they decided to try something. They tried something and given the day he'd had Rick wasn't putting up with any shit.

There's a difference between coldly sacrificing an ally and being prepared for a stranger to prove themselves an enemy. Yeah, they both killed people but trying to say they're pretty much the same is painting with too broad a brush.

edited 14th Feb '12 5:22:04 AM by Tyyrlym

"Tyyr's a necessary evil. " Spirit

Thanks for explaining the ending for me, guys, I was confused as I was watching out of the corner of my eye and thought that Rick shot them in cold blood. It makes a lot more sense now.

Also, Lori really isn't helping the depiction of women in this show. Lol driving.

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Yeah, Lori and Andrea aren't really great role models.

"Tyyr's a necessary evil. " Spirit

I'm seeing a definite pattern with the female characters. They're less capable (or not capable at all) of defending themselves, and any time they take initiative and do something, it's impulsive, emotional, poorly thought out, and usually ends up in disaster.

Some of the male characters show that, too, (hi, Dale!) but they usually have a good or at least not-harmful action in their past. Maybe Maggie will stick around and break the pattern. Or maybe one of the women will do something to redeem her character, because right now the only one that's remotely likeable is Carol, and I still want to shout at her to stop being so passive.

edited 14th Feb '12 3:29:10 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

So, basically, Rick is in the position Herschel was for the first half of the season, only Rick doesn't have any qualms with shooting the people who touch their guns. And it was Herschel who was the asshole for acting like he did, wanting the "new people" to leave, all for the first half of the season...

I mean at this point, the final bit of the conversation between Rick and the guy may as well have been "You can't come to the farm, because me and my group already forcibly took it from Herschel."

Again, that's not what I see... The moment Rick stood up to face the fat guy, it seemed to me that he came to his own conclusion that neither of them were leaving that bar alive... If a cop were caught on camera reaching for his weapon three times before having a "justified" reason to shoot a perp, the shooting wouldn't have been called justified(at least, not by anyone who didn't know the cop)...

Save for the one in the middle(Shane shooting Otis for shooting Carl), each of these are plausible. Plausible as an explanation for what happened that Dale probably would have believed if Shane used one of them...

You say that there are plenty of possible scenarios that Shane wouldn't want to admit to... But that's not true. Shane would admit to most of those. At least to Rick/Lori. Because they would understand the circumstances, and also be okay with the lie glorifying Otis' actions to help Herschel and Co grieve.

Dale is likely of the belief that Shane hasn't told Rick or Lori any such story, and that's why he goes to a situation where Shane would likely not tell anyone about. Dale doesn't go to the idea of Shane shooting Otis dead, because it doesn't seem plausible to Dale. Shane is a sick son-of-a-bitch in Dale's eyes, but he still sees Shane as practical, and that he wouldn't outright kill Otis... Only leave him for dead for Walkers, so Shane can get away.

It still came off as a bit silly to have Dale spout off exactly what actually happened.

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The bar scene with Rick had a Han vs. Greedo feel to it, at first I thought Rick shot first but after slowing it down I saw that the guy was reaching for his gun not a bottle.

In Andrea's defense (pardon me while I throw up in my mouth), after some training in how to use a pistol she actually showed a lot of competence in killing them. Not much judgement, but more than capable of defending herself. That said there were so many layers of stupid with her shooting Daryl that I still wouldn't trust her with a gun or anything more important than washing clothes.

Lori though, you described her to a T. Looks like she's going to get herself killed just driving into town.

I can give Carol a bit of a pass on it all. Given what's she's been through she's systematically had the initiative beaten out of her and now been confronted with her zombified daughter. Hopefully she will eventually snap out of it, maybe go Mama Bear over her last kid or something. Maggie has hope. Lori is... I really don't know how they could redeem her at this point. She's the load right now, emotionally and physically.

No, Herschel was an asshole for completely different reasons that dont' mesh with this situation. If you're referencing my stand on a hostile take over of the farm from previous discussions then you're not grasping the arguement at all. My standpoint on Rick's actions or the other's with relation to not allowing someone on the farm is entirely neutral. The difference this time is the level of force Rick is willing to back his "No," up with.

What scene were you watching? Rick reached for his weapon when provocative actions occured. When the skinny guy pulled out his gun Rick's hand went to his. When the skinny guy dipped behind the bar Rick's hand went to his gun as a belligerant and armed person was now out of his sight and could have been reaching for a weapon. In most jurisdictions a cop would be getting his ass chewed out for not having his gun out of it's holster and pointed at the guy for either of those actions.

Then why doesn't he? He's got heat on him with Dale, he's got half the camp not trusting him. If he actually thought they'd understand those other scenarios if he admitted to them why doesn't he just do it? They're no more a lie than what he's doing now, and it could get the heat off him with Dale. And we've seen how Rick acts, they went back for Daryl's brother for fucks sake. The guy was pointing a gun at fellow survivors and threatening Rick's life. I don't think Rick would be so understanding about leaving a man behind or not searching for him. Rick's a boyscout and in Shane's mind a super one. I can't really imagine Shane thinking Rick would be ok with any of those scenarios. Lori maybe but she's the least of his problems.

This.

"Tyyr's a necessary evil. " Spirit

I'd have no problem with Lori dying and Carol taking over as Carl's mother figure.

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Wow, Herschel's actually getting hard as fuck.

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