Neon Genesis Evangelion

I'm taking the latter stance: if you don't like the core fanbase, dilute it with moderates.

C'mon Evageeks isn't that bad. >_>

Well, if I may be frank... When it's good, it can get good (seriously, look up their Theory & Analysis articles on some of the mysteries of the anime, especially Yui's agenda or the identity of Unit-00's soul; they are more than willing to consider the possibility of alternate interpretations). And unfortunately, when it's bad, it can get bad (prime example: Shinji/Rei shipping in Rebuild; apparently they aren't as adamant about opposing it for the TV anime versions of the characters).

The one nitpick I definitely don't like about them is that, even though there's been an official English translation for Rebuild's title for a decade now, they still insist on a literal translation of the Japanese title with the word order deliberately arranged so that the resulting acronym can be pronounced as "enemy".

It's really fucking annoying.

edited 21st Mar '16 3:59:39 PM by amitakartok

Hooooooboy...finally caught up. I watched 3.33 a coupla weeks ago, so I'm finally up to date on the Eva works that I'm interested in following. I'm still not exactly sure what to think about 3.33. Part of the problem is that the original anime and manga's overall plot is so entrenched in my head that the twists and turns Rebuild is taking with the additional Evas and Gendo's plan just haven't gelled, and there's a dissonance that is keeping me from getting completely immersed. Its various hiccups have been discussed to death in here and I really can't add anything else, just that I wasn't completely disappointed but was left...unsettled, and longing for closure.

I feel like 3.33 is especually hard as a sequel to 2.22 because it doesn't really lead on from 2.22 - it starts years after that movie with a handful of details about what happened, and then mostly just shows a lot of unexplained future stuff without showing anything behind it.

On its own it's interesting, but it doesn't leave room to accomodate for the movie that it's a sequel to. And that makes it pretty jarring as a sequel.

I feel like Eva 2.22's newer parts were somewhat fleshed out, with that research base being mentioned to hold the third angel of the Rebuild continuity, the mention of the Vatican treaty, that new facility to restore the world's oceans etc. Even then there's a lot of unexplained stuff like Mari, the plug depth and of course Beast Mode - but there was a lot of new that was just there that served to spice up the plot and did a good job of that.

3.33 seemed like it cut us out of the loop. Like when 2.22 cut the Misato surviving Second Impact stuff down into a flashback scene, it was cool and spooky because we already knew the story from the series but there were some serious EoE vibes coming from the short flashback too. It was enough to keep the story exciting but familiar. When 3.33 goes into the future, we've got no idea about anything - Mari's still unexplained, there's this "curse of the Eva" stuff that's brought up once and never explained, all these new faces at Wille never get fleshed out, Gendo just sort of gets what he wants like an asshole etc. There's no weight to the backstory because all we know is the event that triggered everything, and none of the resulting development that led to the Misato and Gendo that you see in the movie.

I feel like the aim was to put the viewer into Shinji's shoes, catapulted into an unfamiliar future where people are cold to him and where he's unknowingly responsible for an almost global genocide. However, Eva always had an interesting world - the Angels, the Impacts, the character drama. The backstory especially. All of that suffers because the movie is focused solely on Shinji, and Shinji's left in the dark about a lot of stuff. As such, a lot of the setting is just there - which is an interesting experience looking at the movie from a minimalist lens, but as far as Eva media goes it's probably the most bare instalment. And I think that hurts the movie significantly as an instalment of the franchise.

edited 23rd Mar '16 10:33:24 PM by MrMallard

Heh, today is the unofficial birthday of Rei Ayanami!

After all that I've seen and read about the rebuilds, I'm growing more uncertain that Anno will answer most of the questions came on from 3.33. and prior. He has one more film left, and there's too much already it'll need to cover.

Someone took down the video.

Welcome to the club.

edited 6th Apr '16 2:15:40 PM by MarqFJA

People honestly expected an Evangelion production to answer all the questions?

edited 6th Apr '16 3:23:01 PM by DarkHunter

Yeah, if you're expecting all your questions to be answered, you're watching the wrong series. You'll be told what you need to know to vaguely understand whats going on, and everything else is up to you to interpret for yourself. IIRC, pretty much the only things in the original series that Anno clarified were that Kaji was killed by some mook, not Misato, and that Asuka in the end of Eo E is just Asuka, not some hybrid of her, Rei, and Misato.

The thing is, when Evangelion first left lots of questions unanswered it was relatively new, fresh and revolutionary. By now it's so overdone it feels like a bad parody of itself.

edited 6th Apr '16 6:59:10 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Indeed. If Anno thinks that doing that now is still just as fresh and cool as it was in the 90s, I'm not exactly gonna be pleased.

Somehow I doubt Anno gives a shit about being "fresh" or "cool."

Even so, I'm not sure that that's gonna fly. Seinfeld Is Unfunny after all.

edited 6th Apr '16 7:23:10 PM by LDragon2

It depends on your definition of 'fresh'.

'Fresh' as in 'hip' or 'fresh' as in 'innovative'? I don't see Anno minding about the former, but about the latter, which was the one I meant. As a matter of fact I believe he wanted to be fresh and bold with 3.33, he just happened to stumble at it because 'new and bold' doesn't equal 'good' if it isn't done with some elegance and common sense.

I meant the latter. It's a problem I see with a lot of these kinds of films.

I dunno, at least with Eo E you had some context behind the series and you more or less know where it picks up. When 2.22 came around, the new stuff was either loosely explained to add some more spice to the shaken up setting or some stylistic additions that were awesome as they were. You're mostly left in the dark, sure, but 3.33 is a 14 year time skip which follows Shinji solely and doesn't bother to explain a single thing about those 14 years except "you done fucked up Shinji".

The series, and to a limited extent 2.22, had coverage of Second Impact as well as the period of time between Second Impact and the beginning of the show. There were politics and events that were elaborated on. 3.33 dumps Shinji in the future, tethers the audience to him seemingly to keep them as in the dark about this future as he is, and is noticably a weaker product for it.

The last movie doesn't have to be balls-out insane. I basically want to see Shinji get the help that the post-credits scene of 3.33 says he gets, elaborate on the future he created and give an actual explanation as to how the few remnants of humanity are doing, and show shades of a lighter future that doesn't spend its runtime needlessly punching Shinji in the dick. Or it can be a depressing mess, that's Eva for you - as long as it has wheat to its chaff. Balance the grimness with some actual storytelling and worldbuilding.

Was Anno's prime intent was to make the audience as miserable as Shinji towards the end of both the original series and rebuilds?

I don't think even Anno really knows what his intent is.

Something that occurred to me as I was watching 3.33 is that Anno was trying to hammer home a way that Shinji and Gendo are very much alike, namely an almost monomaniacal fixation on their goals and disregard for the consequences to those around them. Gendo wants to either reunite with Yui or bring her back in some way and has gone to these enormous lengths to make it happen, with the resulting human collateral. In 2.22 Shinji decided he was going to save Rei, oblivious or uncaring of what it took to do so, and in 3.33 he was going to fix the world and was so desperately focused on that that he ignored Kaworu and was willing to go to blows with Asuka to see it happen.

EDIT: The NGE example on Ironic Hell is not only improperly formatted, it seems to be completely misinterpreting Kyoko's fate. N2 it?

edited 7th Apr '16 1:33:15 PM by Willbyr

I'm not quite sure that comparison holds all that well in 2.22 though, because Shinji had no idea what he was doing would cause the end of the world, while Gendo knows exactly what his actions will cause. It's almost like Anno is trying to pound in a theme that wasn't needed before.

Yeah, N2 that not-example.

It took me a while to even get what you guys meant. >.>

That's true about Gendo, but I'm referring more to the actual drive and focus itself...it feels like the same thing for both of them, just applied in different ways, at least to me. *shrug*