Berserk

Remember that time where the Band of the Hawk were considered traitors and they executed a whole chunk of them? They were still fugitives when Griffith sacrificed them all. Why would anyone listen to what they had to say, or even remember them fondly?

And Charlotte has had plenty of time to ask about Griffith's old band and hasn't done so. And she's been in love with him for years now. And he saved her from her creepy dad. Good luck with getting her to turn against him just on the strength of this incident.

And you keep ignoring the million-dollar question: if you wouldn't believe some random guy who started talking shit about your best friend, why would the people of Falconia question the guy who saved their country, subjugated the demons, was declared Super Special by the pope himself, and is leading the country into a new era of safety and prosperity?

edited 28th Sep '14 7:37:37 PM by CorrTerek

That type of person has been dethroned before. You're familiar with Watchmen? When Dr. Manhattan was questioned as being responsible for giving people cancer to the people he loved he left for Mars. Rickert loved Griffith more than anyone and here he's denouncing him. It's the same with what happened to in the analogy of Watchmen that I used. That caused people's faith in him to shatter.

EDIT: Again, you're being too harsh with your evaluation of people of the Berserkverse dude.

edited 28th Sep '14 7:38:28 PM by Couchpotato20

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen

Dr. Manhattan left voluntarily, because he's a good guy. And because leaving voluntarily was the only way anyone could possibly get Dr. Manhattan to leave.

People aren't aware of how much Rickard loved Griffith. They don't have context. All they see is someone they don't know hitting someone they love. The pope hasn't been reading the manga, after all.

edited 28th Sep '14 7:40:32 PM by CorrTerek

@Corr Terek

Dr. Manhattan was still questioned even though he's the savior of America. People still had open minds. Mule even though he's as much of a follower as any other resident of Falconia asked him what happened to souls of those that died which Griffith quickly changed the subject.

People still believe in memories of old times. How the hell did Charlotte and Griffith first meet? Griffith did not come down from the Heavens. He was a leader of a band of mercenaries that became the protectors of Midland. What was Griffith like the last time before he rescued Charlotte from the Kushans? Memories aren't something that people discard easy. The fact that the dead are summoned repeatedly by Griffith for people who have lost someone they love is proof.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen

And in old times, Griffith was a swell guy. That's all that the people who are supporting him ever saw of him, if they met him at all. No one knows he burned the old queen to death, for instance, except a guy who's far too scared of him to ever tell.

And you didn't answer the question.

edited 28th Sep '14 7:51:35 PM by CorrTerek

@Corr Terek

I question my friends. Hell, I questioned my girlfriend and I saw her in a dim light when I found out how infatuated she becomes with people that show her affection. It showed one, it was wrong of us to date and two I needed let her overcome her own problems.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen

Griffith has always been very careful not to let his darker side show. Right now, in this instance, Rickard is the aggressor and Griffith is the hero. There will probably come a time when people look back on this incident and realize what it meant. But this is not the incident that's going to start Griffith's downfall.

We've seen it in real life. Even when the evidence is overwhelming, people will still insist someone they love is innocent. Griffith is beloved by an entire country, and it's going to take more than this to incite a revolution.

Also, just so we're clear: You absolutely would believe someone who you've never met who made wild and serious accusations against your best friend? Even over the word of said friend? You'd believe someone who physically assaulted your best friend?

edited 28th Sep '14 8:00:03 PM by CorrTerek

Here's a translation of the dialogue in chapter 337 (courtesy of people on Skullknight.net):

Honestly, I admire Rickert for his decision. The dream of the band of the Hawk over Falconia is a shitload greater than the one which he had to turn his back on his friends for. The person who he fought for was Griffith of the band of the hawk not Falcon of light. They didn't regret how many laws they broke to rescue him from the king of Midland and in his position they wouldn't do what he did to obtain the current dream he has. No matter the different appearance he's still the leader of the band of the hawk only with demonic powers making him look like a messiah.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen

Oh, definitely, Rickert's awesome. Takes a lot of guts to do what he did. And I'm willing to bet that those who saw what he did and heard what he said will at some point realize the true meaning of what he was saying.

But I don't think it will be soon. One man's voice is easy to ignore. Once Guts's voice is added to his (and Casca's, and Schierke's, and Serpico's, and Farnese's, and Puck's, and Roderick's, and everyone else that Guts has interacted with) we might see that general revolution you've been talking about.

But without context, it's very easy for Griffith to spin what Rickert is saying.

A person she fucked before who I prank called told me she had moments where she made shit up. Her mom corroborated this. My mom even told me she said that I thought about getting her pregnant. I flipped. I have to block her because I'm not sure when I'm ready to deal with her drama.

The aggressor? Dude, no he isn't. Rickert spoke of the time when the hawks rescued Griffith and Charlotte could possibly let that slip. After slapping Griffith, Locus looked so tempted to have him killed on the spot. Hell, he could even have it spread amongst the Apostles and they could likely go aggressive. Guts said it best "Monsters pretending to be knights". Griffith and his apostles are pretending like hell to not let their masks slip. They're failing. Also beloved by an entire country? Rakshas only joined him to kill him, and Silat and the Bakiraka don't buy into his image.

The moment the Apostle's start going for Griffith it's likely Skull Knight will show up to rescue Rickert like he did a while back.

edited 28th Sep '14 8:17:08 PM by Couchpotato20

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen

To put it simply, it all depends on if Locus is willing to allow his Apostle's nature to relapse and would suggest they try to assault Rickert.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen

He is in that he is the one who punched Griffith. Any action that Griffith or Locus take is in reaction to that. It's a classic spin tactic — the first person to throw a punch is the loser in the public eye, all else being equal.

@Corr Terek

I thought of the way but I've changed my view on those sort of incidents. An example being that of one of those theater squabbles. This one Youtube video I looked at this guy popped this teenager in the face and when lights turned on guy was being hauled away and the teen was bloodied face. However, when he was being pulled away he said he wouldn't stop kicking his daughter's seat (little 4-5 year old). What Griffith did was dog kicking in every definition.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen

Yes, but nobody knows that except Rickert and Griffith.

It depends if his origins as a member of the original band comes to light and his background becomes believable if the apostles from the stadium are loosed on the person who struck Griffith. That'll show his kingdom isn't as safe as it's made to be. Hell, when Skull Knight broke into the eclipse they leapt forward to throw themselves in his line of attack.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen

Worth pointing out that since Rickert in this situation appears to be the aggressor (he struck first), Griffith's bodyguards/captains counterattacking wouldn't necessarily mean anything sinister to observers. After all, how would the Secret Service react if someone attacked the President of the USA?

edited 28th Sep '14 8:51:48 PM by CorrTerek

@Corr Terek

Rickert was pardoned by Griffith. He told Locus to lay off. If he target. Rickert it's defiance of orders. Also as shown in translation I showed you Griffith showed some acknowledgement of the band of the hawk badge Rickert showed him. And as I quoted Guts "monsters shouldn't pretend to be knights". They're hiding the hell out of their nature. The arena Locus showed is proof that even they can't be wholly sated and contain their true nature. Also Griffith and Rickert are old friends so how would they know what his reasons were? Also a pardoned person is given their pardon if the authority figure says so.

The Band of the hawks even though Griffith's moving in on Charlotte led to their downfall, their coming to Midland's aid and their rising is still that of mercenaries.

edited 28th Sep '14 9:00:19 PM by Couchpotato20

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen

I waited a month and a half...for a slap? I really wish these chapters were longer.

RIP Akira Toriyama, taken from us far too soon.

it's not like they were ever any longer than this. it's just more noticeable now because the chapters are slow to come by.

these long-running seinen always read a lot better in bulk, the slow and cinematic pacing of most of them doesn't translate well between long breaks.

@ Rojixus

Considering how unbelievably broken is charismatically-wise, influential-wise, and power-wise be glad he got anything directed at him friend. Also honestly, it's a miracle at all Miura is changing his chapter release pace.

"I don't give a rat's ass about going to hell. I guess it's because I feel like I'm already there." -Mugen

I started reading this series proper(well despite the awful translation on some of these scans lol) and wow, certainly lives up to the hype. Puck is pretty lousy as he kills the mood and atmosphere but I think the manga picks up steam once the fat count and the Behelit shows up, since then I've been really into and got up to the end of Eclipse. Several things:

• The artwork is fantastic, great character design and the most unsettling demons I've see in a manga.
• Guts is a real Jerkass at first but the Golden Age does a good job fleshing out why.
• Caska starts off all talk but gradually becomes more likable and I love her dynamic with Guts
• Griffith is a dick.
• Okay while I get that the time period and general mood of the series makes sense for every other villain to be a Complete Monster, it does get a tad bit silly just how like half of midland has RAPE on their mind. It's like whenever we're supposed to know this guy is a bad dude you're supposed to hate, he's gotta somehow be either a rapist or a demon, if not both. A rather blatant although effective example of this is Griffith turning into Femto, and the FIRST thing is he does is go full on RAPE mode in the most degrading and soul crushingly manner possible, as if he had to get a renewal on his villain license. Then of course Wyald takes this trend to borderline narmtastic levels by having his own rape brigade and growing a mouth penis which he tries to rape Caska. Like it kind of gets to where everytime you see a chick on the page, you're half expecting her to at least be a victim of attempted rape once throughout the series. But back in the day, that's sadly what probably happened. I know it's fantasy but I feel the author does a great job of making it feel legit.
• Also how come Wyald was omitted from the show/movies? His fight was pretty badass and had several awesome crowning moments. Like is he just too much or what?
• Also, Zodd is like one of the most intimidating demons I've seen in fiction. He's pretty simple but drawn incredibly well and sounds straight up awesome in the anime despite a few cheesily acted lines. One of my favorites.

I want to continue the manga but first I want to watch the old anime series just to see how it is. Being toned down and cutting out Wyald's fight is a bit upsetting but it still seems fun.

Yeah the rape thing does get weird. I remember at one point actually being really pissed off after a rape-less period because there was just suddenly a rape scene that seemed ridiculously gratuitous but made some sense later.

A lot of people don't like the black swordsman arc in general, but i think everything starting from when we meet the count's daughter is pretty good myself. it really caught me off guard and him choosing her (and by extension, his humanity) over being reformed as a demon was a really strong moment.

You're in for a treat. I think Miura only really starts getting into his groove around volume 14 or so, which is about where you are now. Everything from that point on just gets better and better art-wise.

I'm sad that Wyald wasn't in either adaptation too, i think his fight with guts is one of the best parts of the golden age because it's the first time guts defeats an apostle, which shows how strong he's grown. I think it's excluded mostly for two reasons:

1. in the first series, yeah his scenes/presence was probably a bit too much. the anime toned down a lot of the darker moments in the manga (i don't believe they ever depict guts being raped by donovan, for one thing).

2. as far as the movie trilogy goes, it was probably due to lack of time. the movies cut out a lot of stuff in general, they probably couldn't figure out how to fit wyald into the third movie and have it work.

there are scans of the dark horse translation up on the internet. i'm not advocating piracy but...if you ever get bored, try re-reading with the better translation. i did it a while ago and it was pretty great.

edited 25th Nov '14 8:58:49 AM by wehrmacht

Black Swordsman arc is probably my favorite, actually. It does a wonderful job of illustrating Guts as one of most ruthless non-type-V antiheroes out there, whilst giving his grotesque actions just enough depth (and drive behind them) to keep him from being repulsive. The lengths Guts goes to in fighting/tormenting Lord Koka and The Count, and trying to take down Femto, were truly mesmerizing.

edited 25th Nov '14 2:01:02 PM by DoctorDiabolical

the best part is re-reading it and realizing how much foreshadowing there actually is and how much sense Guts' actions make even in the earliest parts. it's basically guts at the absolute most miserable point of his life, inwardly realizing just hopeless it is to reach the god hand much less do anything against them, but tearing through apostle after apostle in a desperate attempt anyway because he's in so much grief and resolving his problems with violence is the only way he knows.