Israel offers to freeze settlement building on one condition

Worked before. Didn't an American president describe South Africa as "a bastion of Western civilization" less than ten years before the end of apartheid?

Edit: what would Israel gain by being in Gaza? The rocket attacks were going on while they were there and boots on the ground would just mean inevitable IDF casualties.

If the Israelis are intrested in peace why can't I ever hear about any of them? Why aren't there Israeli groups advocating on behalf of the refugees? Why do they insist that peace must come on the condition that Israel should be free to fuck the Palestinians over however they want?

edited 13th Oct '10 3:27:50 PM by Kzickas

The situation in South Africa is a very different from the one here. For starters, It wasn't surrounded by states who openly declared their will to behead the South African president.

If the Israelis are scared of reprisals from West Bank Palestinians, then they may have to keep the area clear. But they should keep their own citizens out of Palestinian lands. To do anything else is to be an invader, and in violations of the human rights laws regarding settlements.

They should also lift the punitative embargoes. Sure, deny things that could be used to make explosives, but don't deny them things like animals, or even cement: What harm is a launch platform without a launcher?

They should also protect Palestinians within Israel better. And for the sake of the Gods, get rid of the 70% rule. I think to look sincere about peace, Israel must do at least these four things. And thats just to get to the table.

edited 13th Oct '10 3:33:59 PM by GameChainsaw

Actually they were. South Africa fought several wars against neighboors who were... unenthousiastic about the South African government and they developed WMD in cooperation with Israel to discourage those.

As for Israel's neighboors the only one that's an immediate source of concern is Syria. Palestinian troops (possibly financed by Israel) guarding the Syrian border until peace is reached with Syria might be a very good thing for Israel to demand in a peace treaty. (as well as a general mutual defence agreement)

Edit: Also I was actually talking about the feasability of making the US change opinion not anything more

edited 13th Oct '10 3:37:20 PM by Kzickas

Lets just try to get the Palestinians and Israelis to stop fighting before we talk about giving the disarmed side weapons, ok?

Though that might restore a bit of national pride in the Palestinians and make them see the Israelis less as enemies to be killed and more as equal partners. Which is what we're all hoping for.

EDIT: ^That wouldn't be easy. The Americans are controlled by pro-Zionist lobby groups, mostly made up of Zionist Jews and Christians. You'd have to break the power of those groups in order to get the Americans to shift allegiances.

Further EDIT: Once achieved, you'd still have to persuade the Americans to act against the Israelis. But if there's any way for Israel to help resolve the conflict by themselves...

Big Sock, you're Israeli, right? You said the general feeling is that Israel is afraid they'll just get rocket attacks if they give away any concessions? How widespread is this view? Are there any Pro-Palestinian Jewish groups? How popular are they?

edited 13th Oct '10 3:41:26 PM by GameChainsaw

The problem is that for the moment they *are* their enemies. To try to make them think otherwise means basically tricking them to the advantage of their enemies. What they need to be persuaded is that the Israelis don't necessarily need to be their enemies.

You wouln't have to convince the US to act. If the US can be persuaded to not oppose it the UN could pass sanctions that would hurt Israel enough to make peace seem attractive

Edit: the problem with what you say is that as long as one side is disarmed the other will demand that any peace agreement is ridiculously biased in their favor which makes making peace little better than not for the disarmed side and with less hope of there ever being improvement

edited 13th Oct '10 3:50:44 PM by Kzickas

Its important to identify the Catch Twenty Two at the heart of this issue. The Palestinians view the Israelis as the enemy, so when Israel reduces the pressure, the Palestinians attack "the enemy." This causes Israel to actually become an enemy for a while. This reinforces the Palestinian image of the Israelis as enemies!

One of them needs to stand back and cool down for a while.

EDIT: True. If America stood down, then any sufficiently powerful country could impose the blockade...

Further EDIT: Then the solution there is simple. Both sides need to be convinced to moderate their views and look to the other sides requirements.

edited 13th Oct '10 3:52:43 PM by GameChainsaw

There are a LOT of pro Palestinian groups in Israel, ranging from the extremely bizarre anti-Zionist orthodox Jews, to the more moderate left wine (MERETZ group, got about 4 or 5 seats in the Knesset last elections) to the more left-center groups like Haavoda (labor, roughly 11 seats) and Kadima (fairly center, around 29 seats).

Your political alignment doesn't actually matter on that fact. ALL Israeli political parties want peace with the Palestinians, one way or another. The more extreme groups are the the more religious factions, some of them outlawd, and the Russian immigrants, whose main party, Yisrael Beitenu, was the one who proposed this new Allegiance Deceleration thingy.

Most Israelis understand that we can not live as a normal, western country while occupying another man's land, but the problem is, a lot of people don't see a partner on the other side. Hamas is treated the same way as Hizbollah and the Iranian government - extremest who want to destroy Israel. Fatah is usually seen as puppets - Abu Mazen (Fatah president) doesn't really have control over the west bank, and without Israel keeping the more extreme factions in check, the west bank would have been Hamas territory too.

One of the main problems is the lawlessness in the west bank (A lot of people who live in the settlements treat Israeli law like a nuisance), the bloated bureaucracy and the tendency of soldiers to lose their senses and become mindless machines that release their frustration on the Palestinian residents.

There is racism in Israeli society, but it's not mainstream. The majority of Israelis want to live in peace, but don't see a way to do it other then defend ourselves. So if we can't go inside Gaza, sit there for half a year and execute every single member of Hamas, we build a fence around the strip and every once in a while threaten them to stop bombing. We put blockades in roads on the west bank to stop terrorists from smuggling bombs into Israel, and build walls next to places who are more likely to be used as infiltration points into Israel. It's the only way we have of defending ourselves.

I'm getting the feeling you're intentionally avoiding the issue of refugees

That's mainly because it's less on the political table these days so I'm not as informed about the situation as I'd like to be.

As I see it, there's not way these people are going back into Israel. If there is going to be a Palestinian state one day, they're welcome to do whatever they like, but Jaffa, Haifa, Tiberia Ashkelon are off limits.

Of course, like I said, it's less discussed in the media here nowdays, as it's seen as a more of a "when we'll get there we'll deal with it" issue, as opposed to settlements or rockets.

So Israel isn't actually intrested in peace? They're intrested in bullying the Palestinians into giving up on their rights?

Edit: The when we get there attitude is absolutly stupid though. With the right of return of the table there will not be any moderization of the palestinians which means the situation will never go anywhere

edited 13th Oct '10 4:08:11 PM by Kzickas

More a case of first things first. If the Israelis can't even control their settlers and are too scared to let the Palestinians into parts of the west bank for fears of rockets, are they really going to allow people from Gaza and the West Bank into Israel?

I'm not saying the Israelis are right, but I'm beginning to see what the entire mess is about.

Big Sock, your country must get a grip on those illegal settlements. And your government won't do that with Netanyahu in charge.

edited 13th Oct '10 4:09:10 PM by GameChainsaw

^^That's.... not what I said. We want peace. I just have no idea about the finer points of the treaty. The refugees question is exactly like the question of "who gets Jerusalem" or "What settlements are to be destroyed and what parts of the west bank will be transferred to which side".

Once there's a peace process going, the politicians start arguing about these points. Right now Israelis are more interested in bringing Gilad Shalit back home and maybe lowering the tomato price (18 NIS for one kg, btw)

edited 13th Oct '10 4:09:22 PM by TheBigSock

That's not what he said. He said they were never going to let them return it was just how they would force them into giving up on it that would be postponed (at least that's how I read it)

Edit: okey, maybe I misunderstood you

edited 13th Oct '10 4:10:52 PM by Kzickas

Who is Gilad Shalit? And what do tomato prices have to do with anything?

EDIT: Big Sock, if there is going to be peace, at some point that wall is going to have to come down with Palestinians free to move into Israel and live there. Surely you realise this?

edited 13th Oct '10 4:10:58 PM by GameChainsaw

Gilad Shalit is the only Po W currently held by HAMAS, the tomato price was probably just an expression for how most people just don't care.

Edit: And that's BAD, people who hurt others without thinking about it can do in ways and amounts that anyone who did so intentionally would balk at.

edited 13th Oct '10 4:13:58 PM by Kzickas

You'd think Israel would be more engaged in its politics, given their situation.

Why you said yourself the Palestinians are unarmed. It's almost funny, either the Palestinians attack Israel and Israel should treat them worse. Or they don't and Israel forget's they excist and keeps treating them just as badly until they can't take it anymore and attack Israel

The Tomato thing was a joke, actually. And Gilad Shalit is a soldier kidnapped in 2006 and part of the reason for the last two skirmishes into Gaza. There's been frantic talks with Hamas to get him back, and so far the price tag as been the release of around 700-1000 Palestinian prisoners who are all terrorists, some murderers. You can read about him in Wikipedia if you'd like a broader history of the whole affair, since I'm not really all that updated about the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit

And I actually haven't given much thought to that freedom of movement thing you mentioned. I guess a peace treaty would involve something like the situation between the US and Mexico right now, that you need some sort of permit to come and live here... I dunno. I'm not a politician, just a citizen. If a Palestinian wants to come and live right next to me he's welcome, as long as my sister doesn't have to wear a burka.

Citizens in democratic states should also be, to some extent, politicians. You cannot have a reliable democratic system where the people are disengaged from issues that affect it.

The Palestinians, for those looking at the wider issue, are the one stumbling block to Israels status as a legitimate state. The resolution of the matter will make or break Israel. Therefore, there is no priority greater than Israel making its peace with Palestine.

There's something I want to state here: There will never be some naturally started "peace process." Either one side will finally give a concession and start seriously moving towards peace, or the two sides will remain in deadlock until one is no more. So, unless the Israelis or Palestinians stop arguing over prisoners and start on major things like settlements and rockets, the conflict will never end. This is how I see things.

A reasonable attitude. Although the part about being a citizen not a politician is worrying. Once the citizens get out of politics things can get real ugly real fast

Oh, and Shalit was captured, civilians are kidnapped, soldiers are captured, or taken prisoner

It strikes me as seriously odd that Israelis are so distant from the issues surrounding them. Something as core to the states future as Palestine should be so important that every Israeli can snap the finest points and most complex mechanics of the conflict off their fingers.

Actually there's a big momentum lately from the more fringe left group towards convincing popular opinion that there are partners on the other side. There's always something going on, but with all the other things going on inside Israel, I don't know when our PM and theirs are going to sit and talk like grownups.

Don't look at me and think my view as a citizen is common, though. I'm not very political and don't do much besides reading the newspaper every day and possibly debate a bit with my friends. The problem in Israel with politics is that there is so much to be for or against - the peach process, the Palestinian situation, education, borders, army actions - so I have a very generalized opinion about everything and leave arguing to people with more vigor then I. I'll start attending the University on Monday, so possibly that'll change. Good night to you all, sleep beckons.

EDIT: The peach process is a spelling mistake because I'm tired. I meant to write "peace" and I keep it there because it amuses me. The price on peaches is actually quite reasonable.

edited 13th Oct '10 4:35:00 PM by TheBigSock

It's not actually possible to sit down and talk when both sides consider what the other consider their fundamental rights to be attacks on their fundamental rights

I think both sides will have to accept some disappointments for this to start moving towards a peaceful conclusion. Though I have to admit this has restored some of my flagging faith that a peaceful solution may be found. Maybe there is some hope...