Dragon Ball Z Abridged

It's much more than 4 minutes when everything else is also a waste of time, like the aforementioned plans or any given fight with Black

I agree about the stalling, though that is a DB thing. Something is set up as a solution to the problem or another guy steps up to fight, but they are gonna fail so that Goku can save the day. The thing about this arc is that ...well, Goku doesn't save the day (in fact, his forgetfulness actually ensures that the day isn't saved).

Agreed. It was a perfect set up, and should have been used.

That time frame was me talking about the spirit sword scene specifically. Since that's the part of the story that is power of friendship, as complained about.

edit:

And if you still wanted to have a climcatic battle against GB, you still could without doing the fusion. Like, he could've gotten so self-righteously indignant about this treatment of his other self that he ascends to something like the SS 2 or SS 3 version of super saiyan Rose, or something of that nature. They could've had a victory over Zamasu and then still had one last fight.

edited 10th Jun '18 9:20:28 PM by Enlong

That they could, especially since Fusion was ultimately a total waste.

Looking back, Toriyama seems to love misfiring Chekovs Guns, as he sets them up just to have them fail again and again.

Then again, it's also a matter of Unspoken Plan Guarantee. The heroes always discuss what they are going to do, so I suppose it makes sense it would fail.

Now that I think about it, almost every time the heroes come up with a plan, it's on screen and in front of the audience...so it really is invoking Unspoken Plan Guarantee.

The one time a plan isn't discussed out loud is when Goku decides Gohan was going to kill Cell...and it more or less works.

Yeah, but that the previous scenes would have influenced people seeing that as a waste of time bevause that's the overall effect of having so many elements like it.

The multiple wastes of time is mostly a Toei thing, since Toriyama's draft was pretty bare - originally Vegeta and Goku could handle Fused Zamasu without Vegetto, and none of the Spirit Bomb Sword stuff was in. Stuff like the Mafuba is still there, but they didn't have the subplot of Trunks having to learn it or anything.

The anime peppered additional stopgaps throughout the arc. I think you're exaggerating how often it is used at other times Rob.

Like, there normally is a failed plan which can be important for the story for two reasons: first, having an immediate solution to the villain devalues their threat (as would having the first plan be successful), second it gives the protagonists something to work towards instead of sitting on their asses or banging their head against a wall until the final solution presents itself.

Like, on the final trip it'd be pretty stupid if they went back without the Mafuba plan or Vegeta's training. But they need to have something to make them feel prepared to go back for the final showdown.

I think the Mafuba would have to fail at least the first time to not feel waaaay too straightforward.

My idea was that Trunks would go back and learn the Mafuba while Goku and Vegeta do the fighting. The first Mafuba fails due to Black's interference, then the fusion happens and Merged Zamasu is a thing. Instead of the potara time limit, there is a call back to Old Kaioshin's warning from the Boo arc: fusing in Super Saiyan would leave the fusion Mode Locked until they run out of energy and die.

Merged Zamasu would still be immortal, but his energy would still be dropping. Using the manga's drawback for the Mafuba they can't just immediately seal him while he's still in top form so Goku and Vegeta need to wear him down.

Trunks wants to GIT MAD and fight the weakened Zamasu once Goku and Vegeta go down, but he resists the urge and puts his energy into the Mafuba, sealing him successfully.

Obviously doesn't work if you find the universe erasure/Replacement Goldfish timeline to be becessary parts of the arc.

edited 10th Jun '18 9:56:53 PM by Saiga

Huh. Them being able to take Fused Zamasu without fusing seems odd, to me. Like, if Rose is able to tango with Goku or Vegeta Blue, and potara fusion is as busted as we know it is, then fused Zamasu should indeed have been on a whole other level at that point, I think.

edited 10th Jun '18 9:53:52 PM by Enlong

I think having Fusion Zamasu as the final boss is better than just Black by himself. Evil Containment Wave wasn't a waste of time narratively because it actually scared Zamasu, who previously hadn't taken any threat seriously because he was invincible, and this lead to him wanting to fuse.

I don't really think anything in the arc was a waste of time since Zeno Ex Machina absolutely would not have helped out if Zamasu hadn't gotten to the point of being a multidimensional threat.

Black and Zamasu were both stronger in the anime. Toyotarou noted in the original notes that Merged Zamasu wasn't super strong, though he still couldn't be beaten outright

In the manga, Zamasu is weaker than Trunks and Black is initially stronger than the Blues but loses once Vegeta goes through more training and uses Super Saiyan God to better handle Blue's power. I think that's closer to what the original draft would be.

It'd be like Vegeta vs Black's final fight if Black didn't power up AGAIN

Also my mafuba idea got partially since I edited it in. I agree with Moth that Merged Zamasu is a much better final boss and the Mafuba failing wasnt a bad thing.

edited 10th Jun '18 10:01:25 PM by Saiga

From what I remember, the Vegitoless first draft went with the Manga's take where Zamasu wasn't technically a Supreme Kai, and his fusion would eventually run out, so they just needed to stall him.

That's kinda neat. I do like that in both versions, the fusion is flawed because he didn't think through what he was putting into it.

Yeah, that's it. Which is interesting because it makes it sound like the potara time limit WASN'T created to throw Vegetto in but was there as a solution to Zamasu (unless this phase of the draft was created after the anime reached that point).

Which makes it feel even more unnessecary to me since there were other solutions to Zamasu that didn't need that.

It's a nice callback to Zamasu's original transgression, and the idea that him murdering his master means that he forever forsook the chance to actually gain the authority he claims.

If you want to keep Fused Zamasu but also want the Mafuba to be narratively effective beyond spooking him, maybe have them suck up Wallpaper Zamasu with it instead of Zen-o'ing him?

How does one target everything with a move like the Mafuuba?

Get him before he fully permeates everything?

I dunno. Obviously it wouldn't work with the abstract force he was presented as in the anime, but if he were toned down into more like a growing miasma of energy then it might be more believable.

This conversation seems like it'd fit the manga thread better. It's not completely out of place here, but it is a bit off-topic and it's gone on a while

@Anom What did you think of my idea, posted earlier?

Yeah I'd really rather that the Super discussion left this thread.

I like it. It's an interesting alternative downside to the fusion, exploited to wear down a powerful being

Personally, though, I want the visual satisfaction of seeing Zamasu get destroyed. Simply Mafuba'ing him from the start lacks that, so I figured one could have their cake and eat it too by sword-bisecting him as his "main defeat" and then sucking up his last-ditch wallpaper attack as a cap-off.

That being said, I do agree that this is an odd tangent for this thread to go on. I guess the long wait for episode 60 is just kinda boring. Do we have an estimate for its release date yet?

edited 11th Jun '18 12:05:40 AM by Anomalocaris20

See, I like this more than what they came up with, but as others have said, this is a discussion for the main Super thread.

I did like the bit where Piccolo demonstrated the Mafuba as if he was doing one of those instructional Youtube videos.

I was kinda hoping they'd be doing more of those for promotions.

those words

they've actually been spoken

They've never been spoken...?

What's with the dramatic italics? Are you really making a big deal out of the fact that there is no dedicated Dragon Ball Super thread, and it was a simple mistake? I can't think of any other reason for them.