Archie Sonic General Discussion

So, it isn't just that everyone remembers the previous universe; the old universe is still actively impacting the current storyline?

I don't think it is, but the old universe LED to the new one, so it really depends on what you mean. :( The memories are apparently merging, as well, so they probably won't be mentioned much.

I am goign to mourn the multiverse now.

edited 6th Jan '14 7:12:04 PM by lalalei2001

Well, in the Nu52 for example, hardly anyone (if anyone,) remembers the old universe, and after the first several months of Crisis On Infinite Earths, that was the case there too. But it seems here that everyone at least knows that there was a previous universe before the current one, which is something.

Also, I've been thinking; if Pender's characters have been Exiled from Continuity — and this would include his characters from his Knuckles series — then where does that leave Knuckles? He had a massive cast built around him, seeing as he had his own series; are most of these characters, and thus most events in Knuckles' series, just gone?

edited 6th Jan '14 7:52:34 PM by kkhohoho

Funny thing is people are calling it the Nu252 because of when it started XD

Hopefully.

...So, does this mean you didn't like Knuckle's supporting cast, his series, or both? (Or am I off the mark here, and if so, sorry.)

edited 6th Jan '14 7:53:28 PM by kkhohoho

some of hi cast was good. like the chaotix and they are sure to be around still. and the series was a mess

I doubt anyone knows...I tried to register at that forum linked a page ago to ask but....where the heck is the physical copy of the newest issue?

it's been delayed, same with Mega Man

Oh guess delays are a problem with all comic companies

Huh, so since new continuity has game contuinity in it, Gemerl is canon now?

Which is kinda weird since Gemerl has never made another appearance since Sonid Advance 3 I read from wiki that Sega apparently forbidded use of Emerl, but I guess since Black Arms also appear now that Sega has lifted all exclusive character stuff?

Is there a way to buy online version of comic btw?

As far as I know, I recall hearing that Gemerl is going to be canon. The current SU arc is revolving around the Black Arms since Sega (finally) allowed their use (except for Black Doom, thus the expy) so Shadow the Hedgehog IS canon.

As for Knuckles' supporting cast... well... the Chaotix are owned by Sega and safe from the exile to the Penders Zone.

BTW, I have to ask. Who was the most responsible for Titan Tails? Bollers, Penders, Flynn, or was it all a kurfluffle?

So many questions... Overlanders still exist, or just humans? If Robotnik Classic was the Julian in the new world, does this mean that the whole "Eggman used to be the alternate Robo-Robotnik" thing no long canon? Is the next Super Special mag gonna answer any of the continuity questions?

edited 28th Feb '14 2:37:08 AM by LittleRedHen

god the legacy volumes are getting harder to read since important stuff is happening in stuff not collected in them. For example mecha madness oh my god sonics robotecised hes knocked out knuckles and is gonna attack knothole...

turn the page, sonics normal and is being put on trial...wtf?

Titan Tails was created by Romy Chacod. In a the they were more writers, but the only wrote few stories.

There are only humans. That whole Overlander business was always needlessly complicated anyway.

No its no longer canon. For the record I also doubt that his name is Julian now.

Main story happened in Mecha Madness Special.

I haven't been reading the Sonic the Hedgehog comics since the 90s, but my most favorite storyline from that era was "Endgame." I loved the way that Sonic was framed for killing Sally and how the story was spent on Sonic trying to clear his name while fighting Robotnik at the same time.

i have to admit while reading endgame i really thought geoffry st john was in on it too

Me too, although I was a bit annoyed with how the other Freedom Fighters thought that Sonic really did kill Sally even though they've known him for many years.

to be fair it was a genuine shock to them all and before things got worse for knothole they realised they may have been too hasty

...I Thought that Endgame was the worst story ever.

Reasons? Many but for starters convoluted way that Sonic was framed. Beside evil Sonic (recurring character created by the same writer that wrote Endgame) Robotnik could just make robo-copy of Sonic. In fact he did; in in third part of the very same story he used robot-King. And yet everybody believes that Sonic was the one who did it. It get super ridiculous when Robotnik reveals robo-king while screaming something like "Sonic has betrayed you! But king did not!". What makes it even dumber is that Robotnik didn't use robot. Instead he had a traitor that tricked his girlfriend into dressing as Sonic. In case you cant see why this is ridiculous I send you to this post: http://www.bumbleking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=355799&sid=cabd53d4ae1ed3c81ab551bc4a490c66#p355852

edited 2nd Mar '14 1:30:42 AM by Sunchet

It's probably for the best that Overlanders and humans are now going to be the same, I guess. They never did stick with "Overlanders have four fingers, humans have five" schtick.

Hell, they pretty much didn't go ANYWHERE with Overlanders despite their Great War & the Robotniks being them. Penders got sucked onto Angel Island and his race of Sues... I mean Echidnas and wanted to ingnore everything Bollers did, Bollers was more focused on romance than action and sped through some major events like the Bem ending robotiziation (and as Benny Lee, he did some more weird stuff), Romy (who I think I've caught up on) was more slice-of-life when not dealing with Tommy Turtle, Gallager was really low key in the later years, same as most of the other less known writers until Flynn took over.

Endgame was a mixed bag. I've been going back through the old stuff from the original miniseries to now with the reboot (and I've only just gotten to the start of the era of Potto), and pretty much got whiplash from "Sonic comedy" to "HFS, this is supposed to be same continuity?".

You brought up a lot of good points about Hershey in the Sonic suit and her being UTTERLY clueless about everything apparently. It just goes to show that Penders wasn't the best writer, even back during his "prime". IIRC, Hershey didn't even get introduced until after she nearly killed Sally. There was little attachment the reader can have with her other than the quick "Oh, she's an abused girlfriend" which just can't be all a female character could be. Mind you, Drago was introduced, what, one issue before Endgame started? But at least the target audience at the time (fans of Sonic SATAM) could at least get a big blow from an ally of a Freedom Fighter team going bad.

But there was some other stuff that was good. Sonic's fight with Robotnik was kinda epic. Sally & Sonic's relationship did go forward. And it did really feel that for the first time, sh*t is REALLY going down, even if they shot themselves in the foot by pretty much killing off Robotnik-Prime to make room for Robo-Robotnik/Eggman; a Robotnik from another universe who lacks the true emotional tie of the Traitor to Mobius-Prime that they SHOULD have gone with... all they had to do was make the comparatively goofier R-P freakout at getting pretty much vaporized and stepping up his game... which is what was Eggman's first status quo as Robo-Robotnik.

...How much credit is Penders trying to take away from Kanterovich anyway? He "co-created" Evil Sonic (Scourge) and Robo-Robotnik (who was repurposed as Eggman) with Penders, and last I heard, Penders said HE owned those two. ...Which seems impossible, since they are literally derivatives of SEGA's lock-stock-owned characters.

edited 3rd Mar '14 3:11:23 AM by LittleRedHen

wait so the robotnik who more or less is a weird amalgamation of the two cartoon series of the 90s who was the villian of the first 50 or so issues....truly is gone for good?

kind of a shame

Yeah. They killed him off because they thought the comic wouldn't make it past #50 or so. But it was still hugely popular, so they made the next villains be the Dark Legion for Knuckles & Ixis Naugus & Mammoth Mogul for Sonic & Tails and went on.

However, since Sonic Adventure was coming out in 1999, they needed Robotnik back and, since they apparently didn't want to undo the impact of Endgame, brought back Robo-Robotnik, who was portrayed as being more serious & deadly than Robotnik-Prime who was mostly a goof with a few serious moments (mostly in backstory).

Pre-Endgame Robotnik-Prime remained dead... until the almost universally hated Issue 108 where Karl Bollers, under his Benny Lee pseudonym, wrote a one-and-done story where Eggman manages to bring back Robotnik-Prime for a very stupid plan (lampshaded by Bunnie no less) where Robotnik would pretend to defect to Knothole so he could lure Sonic & the FF to a trap to disintegrate them, which they saw through from the beginning (and keep in mind, this was WAYYY past the goofy era had ended) and destroyed the machine which kept Robotnik's atoms together and he naturally vaporized shortly afterward, never to be seen or mentioned again outside of flashbacks.

That's one of the reasons my lamenting that they didn't just bring back R-P back instead of doing that convoluted "Robo-Robotnik from an alternate universe's future, who went back in time and to another universe, who transferred himself to the Eggman body"; so that story wouldn't have happened. And it was penciled by Ron Lim, just to make it all the more suck.

edited 3rd Mar '14 4:42:55 AM by LittleRedHen

Flynn himself didn't like Overlanders thing and even stated in official encyclopedia that they can have both five and four fingers.

Oh, Penders's "Knuckles the Echidna" series. I actually liked them first time I read them. But at some point...Since Enerjak was so dangerous echidnas decided to ban all technology. ALL of it. No wonder someone (Legion) protested. And since they had no better idea how to deal with them, they send them to another dimension. Using same powers Enerjak did. And some time later they went back to using technology. Yes, Dark Legion are extremists, but rest of echidnas are both extremists and hypocrites.

If there is one thing I liked in Archie it was how big it was. Debut of Naugus, Defeat of Robotnik, even Sonic Loses Memory plot felt much bigger in Archie that in Satam. However Bollers managed to in 15 issues: bring back and kill original Robotnik, destroy Robotropolis, reveal location of Knothole to Eggman, and de-robotisize first Eggman and that everybody else. And made all of it feel SMALL.

Sadly, Gallager couldn't write any good stories after Endgame, be that humorous or action-packed.

Fine I give Endgame points its earned: Uncle Chuck refusal to give up on Sonic was touching (even if Amy or Tails should follow his example), Geoffrey determination to capture Sonic well reflected on his grief and worked well as payoff to their building rivalry, and yes final fight was really awesome. And I liked St H #50 cover.

Ugh, Hershey and Drago. Not only they came out of nowhere with little to no build-up, but they also became a recurring characters. Really lame recurring characters. Not even Flynn could save them. Funny thing is that Wolf Pack also a kinda lame reccurers, but they do have fans, so it seems its less that they lack potential, and more that writers never try to do anything with them - even compared to other secondary FF groups.

Haha, Sally and Sonic...Scary thing about Endgame is that it could've been worse. Sally was meant to die for real. In fact Penders spoiled that info at least five months before Endgame started. Besides how undignified death for Sal that would be (character I don't even really like), it also makes story's bulls**t even bulls**tier. Death of major character needs a purpose. That purpose was framing Sonic. That a big dramatic plot point. Sacrifice was made to bring it to life. Clearly it was well thought out and planned like hundred times. If done well it could almost justify death. And by "done well" I mean "have a satisfying resolution". You know where I'm going with this. Ducly pulled out of nowhere truth powers: both that she senses truth and that she never lies. A little convenient, but hey its to late for good writing, huh? Let me spell out why this is stupid: Both Knuckles and Geoffrey buy everything she said, which makes her powers a well known fact. And that rises a obvious question, why no one thought about it before? Hell, why Dulcy isn't used at fact-checker everytime someone is framed or everytime they suppose someone might be a traitor? And just for the record someone (Penders, I think) planned to reveal that Sally was still dead and character at the end of STH 50 was a robot. Apparently she was planned to be responsible for STH 51 plot.

And about Robo-Robotnik...Since they didn't want to bring old one from the dead, I think that "Robotnik from another dimension that won Endgame, killed Sonic and now come to conquer this dimension" was the best idea possible. And them 108 came making whole thing a moot point. BTW did you know that "Anonimous" (you got to him already?) was meant to be Robotnik? But Flynn prefers to think and threat Robotniks as one person, so he considers bringing original as pointless.

Penders unsurprisingly claimed he did most of the work, including creating characters. Seeing how he claims to own Evil Sonic, somebody asked if they can create Evil Julie-Su and claim rights to her. He said no, apparently cause Anti-Mobius is his idea. So there goes my plan to become rich by making Evil Star Wars.

i am just reading from the legacy collection because its hard enough to get new issues in scotland let alone old ones

Yeah, I'm just at that part. I'm not so sure why Flynn changed Romy's original plan where Anonymous actually was a revived Robotnik-Prime so that it was A.D.A.M. all along. I guess so it wouldn't undermine making Robotnik-Eggman a bigger threat ala the SEGA games? Hell, they could have at least made A.D.A.M. be the uploaded mind of Robotnik-Prime taking his revenge, and at least give him a more dignified ending than #108 did. Eh... What Could Have Been.

Penders is such a hypocrite & liar. You can't claim to have invented the concept of "alternate mirror universe where everyone's the opposite of their alignment". Hell, as a supposed "fan" of Star Trek, he should know that TOS did THAT story, what, around 25 years earlier?

I have to ask, what do you guys think of Tracy Yardley's artwork? Personally, I think it's really good, but I've heard some people say they can't stand it and, IIRC, even Penders himself said he didn't like it. ...Which after seeing his concept art for the Lara-Su Chronicles.... yeah.