A Song Of Ice And Fire

The thing from Jaime V AFFC:

(Note also the singer - that's Tom O'Sevens from the Brotherhood without Banners, one who is still on Team Stoneheart, spying for them)

The one time Jaime tries to do things the way he thinks Tywin would do things, and of course it's going to get him in more trouble.

Lannisters just don't know when to shut up.

I do think this was quite smart of Jaimie. It's less of a Then Let Me Be Evil and more of a, 'let them think I'm evil'. Even if he clearly doesn't mean to do most of what he said (destroying Riverrun would have little tactical benefit and the Freys wouldn't like him murdering a relative, especially a relative whose heir to the castle he said he'd burn down), his reputation as a duplicitous incestuous murderer without honour (and to be fair, they're not entirely wrong) means that they'll take it serious. He weaponizes his reputation to actually try to make the situation better, and all it took was threatening child murder (yay character development!).

It's like how much of the fanbase is excited for the upcoming beautiful, heart-wrenching romance between two like-minded teenagers finding their place in the world... between an aunt and her nephew. Actually, people loving avuncular relationships is quiet common in this franchise.

Edited by king15 on Mar 30th 2024 at 6:43:15 PM

This is one for the collection of very normal sentences people say when discussing A Song of Ice and Fire. Other examples that I picked up on Reddit (and probably don't remember exactly):

• "He might be complicit in any number of atrocities, but at least he doesn't make everything worse by his mere presence. That's quite a feat for a Lannister."
• "And then Big Balls Brandon, who was at eleven already a man grown, gathered the army of widows and orphans and disgraced Ser Wendel Wenderson at the Battle of Disgrace." (someone trying to mock the writing style of Fire & Blood)
• "Barristan the Boomer."

The scene at Riverrun also highlights the flaws of the so-called Good Guys. Edmure's Uncle doesn't care about his nephew dying and would benefit quite heartily from him dying (as he would then be the legitimate Lord Tully). However, the Freys still threaten him when Jaime notes that the best thing to do is to get Edmure to surrender and override the Blackfish.

What???? Brynden clearly cares a great deal for his family, he just assumes Edmure is a dead man walking because, y'know, the Lannisters and Freys already pulled every dirty trick in the book to murder Catelyn and Robb.

Also, Brynden wouldn't be the new Lord Tully even if Edmure dies. Edmure's child by Roslin, Sansa Stark and Robert Arryn are ahead of Brynden in the succession. From what we know of Westeros succession laws, daughters and their children are ahead of their uncles in Riverrun's succession order (and the education Hoster gave to Catelyn supports this conclusion)

Now Brynden did condemn the smallfolk around Riverrun to death by starvation when he stripped the land of its food. He's not as good a person as "My people. They were afraid" Edmure.

Westerosi nobility in general doesn’t think much of the commoners. Arya was a rare exception.

If Sansa did marry Robert Arryn (which is unlikely), and Edmure, Blackfish and Frey baby died, then a son between Sansa and Robert would be Lord of the Eyre, Lord of the Riverlands and Warden of the North (if they dealt with the Boltons). Plus, they'd have a claim to King of the North which, if they claimed, would lead to about 2/3 of the Seven Kingdoms (in size, less than half in terms of number of kingdoms) becoming independent from the Iron Throne.

Obviously this is unlikely narratively (it's clearly not where the story's going), and unlikely within the narrative (even if Littlefinger did let Sansa marry Robert, something tells me that he wouldn't live long enough to have kids). Plus there's Bran and Rickon in the way (though I doubt the former would want to claim his titles and doubt the latter would survive very long). Still, fun to think about.

Edited by king15 on Mar 31st 2024 at 5:35:44 PM

I think littlefinger plan marry sansa and then have that person have a first class travel to the moon gate.

Harry is Littlefinger's pawn so it's an interesting question. Basically, Littlefinger arranged for a very minor relative to Jon Arryn get extensive debts to him while eliminating everyone between him and the Vale's Lordship.

Littlefinger might off him but I suspect he has the long game planned for him.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 1st 2024 at 2:10:08 AM

Part of the plan involves arranging a marriage between Sansa as "Alayne" and Harrold Hardyng, who is next in line for the title of Lord of the Vale after Robert Arryn.

Which means Robert Arryn needs to die for Littlefinger's plan to work.

Yes, Robin will die sometime soon.

Harry is the next question.

Does Littlefinger plan to off him too?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 1st 2024 at 2:10:48 AM

I don't think he's just planning it, he's already set the plan in motion:

We know from one of the Arya chapters in AFFC that sweetsleep can be used as a murder weapon. From the Sansa chapters we know that Robert Arryn is receiving lots of sweetsleep by Littlefinger to mitigate his epilepsy, enough to worry the maester - but crucially, the maester does not bother to explain why it is a problem to give Robert lots of sweetsleep, resulting in Sansa giving Robert even more of it. There is also the implication

'twouldn't surprise me if in the next Sansa TWOW chapter, Robert is dead, and the maester will eat the blame for not having properly (or "properly") warned Littlefinger and Sansa. Of course, even if Robert survives the sweetsleep, Lyn Corbray or something else might get him.

What's even sadder is that Robert's quite aware people around him are just waiting for him to die. That's why he doesn't like Harrold.

And geez, Sansa just keeps getting swept up in plots to kill people.

Edited by M84 on Apr 1st 2024 at 5:31:31 PM

I think Sansa's been through enough that she should be given the honour of choosing which murder plots to join.

That would be the logical progression.

From unwitting accomplice to unwilling accomplice to willing accomplice to active plotter of murder(s).

Arya of course already has her beat on this front, being an assassin with a bodycount.

Edited by M84 on Apr 1st 2024 at 6:23:21 PM

Littlefinger might be planning to marry Sansa to Harry, but I'm not sure he'd allow Harry to live for long after that. Petyr is too possessive.

Edited by SilentColossus on Apr 1st 2024 at 9:44:29 AM

Also I think he was to use sansa as tool, get rid of anyone and have her as political force in the vale...with him behind her of course.

it will also depend if sansa identity come back or not.

He'll probably reveal it himself - "Actually, my bastard daughter is Sansa Stark! I had to hide her from Cersei..." is a good explanation - and it allows him to make a claim on the North, and possibly the Riverlands too.

I think that is the actual plan revealed in either one of the books or one of the previews of Winds of Winter.

Petyr explained to Sansa that he plans to reveal her true name after she's married and use that to make a claim to Winterfell which will be reclaimed with the Vale's support.

Things that always puzzle me: Why do people keep taking Cersei's "How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna" in AGOT as an accurate statement about Robert's legal and practical ability to put Cersei aside.

Cersei isn't the brightest bulb in the political chandelier so I am not sure we can take her analysis as gospel. Especially since Stannis in TWOW heavily implies that he can't break Asha's marriage to Erik Ironmaker just so, there is no precedent in Westerosi history we know of of a king setting aside his queen - not even by petty tyrant Aegon IV - and from the scandals around Aegon V's children and Robb-Jeyne it seems like breaking marriage arrangements willy-nilly would cause major blowback. It wouldn't be a matter just of Cersei-Robert, either; if you make that precedent, what's to guarantee that, say, Margaery-Robert can't be put aside, or any other marriage alliance?

I don't remember Cersei saying anything along those lines? I just read the conversation in the godswood between her and Eddard and nothing like that.

The start of Renly's plot to do that is mentioned and his goals revealed in A Co K but that's about it. How much chance it ever had of working... *shrug*

The King can probably find pretext Henry VIII style for divorce or execution if he really wants to. Though Robert would have a fun time installing himself as head of a faith but having two sons already would complicate it.

As far as I remember, Cersei says this to Jaime shortly before they discover that Bran is listening.

From an out-of-universe perspective, it's probably just Early-Installment Weirdness. From an in-universe perspective, Cersei's fear about it seems kind of... displaced? Maybe the actual fear is about Robert finding out about her infidelity, but then, Robert picking a new queen wouldn't even be close to her biggest problem, she's just not thinking about that realistically. Maybe she thinks because she doesn't take her marriage or marriage in general all that serious, no one else does. Cersei in general seems to think that Might Makes Right and Screw the Rules, I Make Them! is both normal behavior and a valid political strategy (to be fair, Robert's whole reign is built on getting the throne via conquest, so it's not that out there to expect him to operate on that principle).

I really don't know how Renly's plan of getting Robert a new queen was supposed to work. Either he knew or at least suspected that Cersei's children weren't actually Robert's and was thinking ahead how he and his allies could profit from it (clever, but not really in character). Or he didn't know - or didn't care - and it was all about aesthetics, the heartbroken king meeting his lost love again in another woman, imagine the songs about it (not that politically savvy, but in character for Renly).

While it could certainly be early installment weirdness, Cersei is enough of a paranoid mess taht she might think that Robert would replace her (maybe even kill her) even if by all logic that wouldn't and couldn't happen. She might be expceting an 'accident' or, worse!, him somehow finding out a way to divorce her/annul the marriage (and, to be fair, I imagine incest could be used to render a marriage null and void so it's not like that's completely impossible).

Also, she's saying this while fucking her brother and and just before she tells him to kill a child, which demonstrates really that she's not a very sane individual..

Oh yeah. That as well.

Edited by king15 on Apr 4th 2024 at 7:27:23 PM