A Song Of Ice And Fire

First off, there isn't just one culture in Slaver's Bay. There are are two. The culture of the slavers and the culture of the slaves.

Second, there's very little in the way of virtues when it comes to feudalism and Wildling society.

Thirdly, my main point was that the difference in portrayal wasn't in content but how things are framed. Despite how repugnant they are, Jon falls in love with Wildling culture and tries to relate to them while Daenerys is contemptuous of the slavers and finds herself alienated by them. I mean I agree that depiction of Slaver's Bay is Orientalist, but I think it's on a far better level than the Dothraki where all the men have the same personality.

edited 19th Oct '17 4:08:32 PM by MadSkillz

The US, and I was refereeing to the view that we are a barbaric society built upon slavery and genoicde, and are therefore uniquely horrendous, in fairness they will often include Australia and the other countries in the Americas, implying that we are in effect cursed to remain inferior to Europe because of our sin, with no culture or redeeming qualities, that can not be attributed to the "civilizing influence" of post 1945 Europe. Of course they take responsibility for these things in only the most nebulous sense, and then go on to brag about the moral superiority of the governors back home as opposed to those nasty colonists. A fair critique, except those oh so moral officials sent our ancestors over here to begin with. The worse thing about Trump is that he proved those pricks right.

I dont think that anyone think of America being a dystopia except some fringe groups. Or pretentious europeans that pretent that they are not bigoted while being bigoted.

By the way, I come from a zone who was dominated for Europeans, so dont worry, we hate them even more than Americans.

We more of less agree, but saying that is less bad than the dothraki is hardly a possitive. The Dothraki are a living stereotype AND a walking Plot Hole in the worldbuilding. Slaver Bay is just a pure evil shithole where all characters are unlikeable. Both are pretty orientalists dystopias to be saved for the White Teenager.

Comparing the Wildlings to the Slavers is awful because there IS sympathetic wildings and actual positive things to said about them. Like their gender equality and their meritocracy. In fact, if you were to ask me, I would said that the wildlings are portrayed way TOO sympathetic, but that is my own personal issue.

Even in Mereen it's almost fascinating how there's a single member of their court who isn't a raging despicable asshole.

I don't see how they're a plot hole. Stereotype, yes.

There are plenty of likeable characters in Slaver's Bay like Missandei, Grey Worm, Strong Belwas etc. Many of the slaves are sympathetic and likeable.

There aren't any sympathetic slavers which is what you want.

Although I'm going to give a shout out to the Shavepate who I do like.

I agree that the Wildlings are portrayed too sympathetically but they really don't have gender equality or a meritocracy. Their "meritocracy" is defined by who is the most badass and I hardly see any female Wildling leaders around.

@Kazuya: Wait, which are the three countries in one? I wanna know if I'm included.

The reason why the Dothraki are a plot hole is because such a culture like them, it would be either a isolated small force or just be destroyed. They wear no armor in actual fights, had no strategy besides Zerg Rush and despite all of their monolithic culture, they are also the founders of a big trade center. Somehow.

Said this, I am more interesed in hear your opinions of the wildlings, most of the fans that I have met just thought of them as being overall better than Westeros, which is a opinion that I dont share (I think that both cultures sucks, but if I had to born in one of them. I probably will choose to live in The Citadel, albeit that probably isnt a good idea given that is probably the center of the Apocalype on the south if you believe some theories).

Now to talk a bit more, I remember reading a article from about how Northern Honor is (slighty) different to the idea of honor of the rest of Westeros. By putting emphasis on how the leader must be the one that carries the risk for himself. I dont really disagree with it to be honest, but a part interesed me a lot more than the rest of the article.

The difference of honor between regions/realms. The North see honor as taking the risk yourself , The Westerlands see it as showing your power , The Stormlands see honor as militar sucess, the Vale see it as Chivalry. Interesting comment.

Strangely, the difference between Southern reals are pretty minimal, besides Dorne of course. Is hard to me to notice differences between the culture of the Riverlands, the Reach or the Storm Lands.

Is not a critique or complain at all. Albeit I wouldnt lie, I like the idea of having more differences between the Kingdoms instead of just North (good conservative), South (shit in general) and Dorne (the land of tolerance and culture).

(I am exaggerating the traits of those regions, I know that is more complex than that, but is clearly that we are supossed to like The North and Dorne more than the South)

You are Peruvian? That is nice.

The Three countries in One is more a saying on my city, remember? Costa, Sierra, Selva. Peru is wildly varied place. Is less about being literal three cultures and more about how varied is Peru.

edited 19th Oct '17 7:58:46 PM by KazuyaProta

Oh, no, I'm Chilean. I just misunderstood what you meant.

I get where that saying comes from, though. Taking a train from Cuzco to Macchu Picchu and watching the scenery change from altiplano to jungle is one of the most fantastic things I've ever seen. (Think we can commiserate on the three countries thing too — I went from the driest desert to the rainforest in a week last summer in about twelve hours.)

But anyway yeah Martin usually crafts his world with a lot of care but you can tell where he starts to phone it in. I think the one-dimensionality of most of Essos is one of the things that made me rather dislike Daenerys, it's like everyone else is stuck in morally grey quandaries while she gets to look good next to literal puppy eating villains.

The wildling bridal kidnapping is very obviously more ritualized than not. Like the couple already like each other and the woman expects to be "kidnapped." Varamyr is the primary example of when their culture and politics are abused. There is no evidence Tormund, for example, is a rapist.

Perhaps portraying the wildlings that way is a failure on Martin's part, but no, not all wildlings are rapists according to the text.

I mean, that's the In-Universe stereotype of the Wildings , sure, the actual ones are similar but they clearly have ethical codes and they're show as equal or Even better than the Westerosis in average (just typical countercultural writer things).

Albeit, is hard to see if is because they are actually better or is just because they are leaded for Mance.

Albeit, to be honest, the portrayal of Dorne annoys me more than anything else.

Jon is hardly an unbiased source, especially in that quote.

It's about Jon growing to like them despite their huge flaws that he sees are true.

This

It should say something that most of the Wildlings characters that we know are show as way more sympathetic than the Southern characters.

In other subject

I have noticed that the Andal/Southern culture is pretty much George` less favorite culture, only behind the Slaver culture, I can attribute it to the many Nothern POV s but still. Even in non POV situations, the First Men /Old Gods worshippers are show as better than The Andals/Seven Worshipers.The Blackwood/Bracken rivality being the most obvious example.

I mean, is not only a issue of The Old Gods religion having actual powers via Weirdwood.net but also that the Old Gods followers are pretty much show as more positive than the Seven worshippers on average.

Is kinda annoying to be honest, I dont have any issue with the Seven being just a myth while all other religions have something going to them, but the fact that even the Worshippers are affected for the bias make me feel anoyed.

It definitively had to do with my own religious ideas beign a Christian myself (not a catholic) but is akward see how pretty much all Old Gods-Seven worshipper clash ends up in, Old Gods rule, Seven drools, Fuck the Andals.

edited 20th Oct '17 1:41:29 PM by KazuyaProta

I don't think that's a popular opinion. Andal culture is pretty much your basic West European culture. Plenty of fans care more about what's going on in the South than the North.

Old God followers used to practice human sacrifice. Some still do. Heck, some of these Old God worshippers still practice the Right of the First Night.

No, they're not. We have plenty of terrible Wildlings. Styr, the Weeper , Harma Dogshead (who cuts off dog heads to use her banner), Rattleshirt, Orell, Varamyr Sixskins, Craster, Osha's friends that tried to kill Bran etc.

Compare them to the sympathetic Wildlings: Tormund, Dalla, Val, Ygritte, Leathers, the new Magnar of Thenn and if I were to stretch then also Longspear Ryk.

I mean in the sense that Southern culture is clearly show as more messed up than the Northenn one. We care about the South because is so fucked up and had most of the characters.

Also, about those old traditions, most of them are Offscreen Villainy backstory only stuff, and given that the Seven worshippers went to kill all non seven worshippers on the backstory. Both of them are pretty equal of nastiness, but at current time,all of the Old Gods worshipers than we met are show are better than the Southerns. Overall, the ranking of Westeros society is clearly Dorne> North>Those asshole Southerns. Most of the sympathetic southern characters are social outcasts of their society, while our Northern sympathetic characters are the beloved lords of the land.

edited 20th Oct '17 1:55:55 PM by KazuyaProta

I don't see it. The North has people like Rose Bolton and the Karstarks.

They're the personalities of people currently alive during the story.

I don't see it. We only associate the Wildlings as being better than they are because Jon associates with the good ones.

Put Jon in a group with Harma Dogshead, Rattleshirt, Styr, the Weeper and Varamyr and he'd hate them all as much as Bowen Marsh does.

Oh, I like this theory:

Tldr; Sam goes to destroy the Horn at the top of the Hightower with Gilly and the baby. Euron, on dragon-back, arrives before he gets the chance to and capture Gilly and the baby. He threatens to kill them unless Sam blows the horn three times. Sam has to choose between love and duty and chooses love. Sam brings down the Wall at the behest of Euron.

I'm convinced. It also fits Euron's style. Manipulate others to blow the magic horn for him.

edited 20th Oct '17 3:35:16 PM by MadSkillz

I will not lie, that is awesome.

Also, you can give me the link to that theory?

edited 20th Oct '17 4:13:38 PM by KazuyaProta

Makes sense. Especially since Euron got Cragon to blow a magic horn at the kingsmoot instead of doing it himself.

Also, ~Mad Skillz.

I mean, sure we have some Northern assholes, but overall, they are show as more positive than the Andals decendents/Seven Worshippers/Southers in average. I cant judge Southern culture for Joffrey , I cant judge Northern culture for Roose.

I heard a pretty convincing argument that the (hideously one sided) feud between Blackwoods and Brackens are George way to show his opinions about The contrast between cultures without hiding anything.

Pagan rules, catholics drools!

edited 20th Oct '17 5:34:42 PM by KazuyaProta

Aren't actually both Brackens and Blackwoods of Northern descent?

Allegedly. Also their both converts to the faith of the Seven.

Only the Brackens, the Blackwood still worship the Old Gods.

Guess what family is the sympathetic one.