A Song Of Ice And Fire

So far in the show Jon hasn't really had any adverse effects from being resurrected like Stoneheart, though he might have become more brutal and uncompromising (unless that was a thing while he was "alive" alive).

@Librarian That's probably because the show is breaking its own rules and they haven't given a real reason as to why Jon is okay. Yeah he came back a little more traumatized which he got over.

GRRM says his resurrected characters come back as almost completely different characters. Beric is not the Lightning Lord, Gregor Clegane is not Robert Strong, Catelyn Stark is not LS and Jon likely won't be Un Jon.

Well, the longstanding theory is that Jon will be relatively okay because his body will be placed in an icy location to hold off decomposition and his mind will be in Ghost prior to resurection. Which makes for a different situation than Berric, who was killed and resurrected a bunch of times (although raised quickly each time) and Catelyn who was decomposing in the river for several days prior to resurrection- and neither of them were warged in the interim.

And if this is true, it is seemingly born out in the show presenting Jon as relatively okay- the assumption being the show just didn't choose to show Jon "in Ghost" for several episodes.

Also, on a completely different topic, I wanted to get the feedback of others regarding a frequent feature of Poor Quentyn's analysis. So basically, he describes the Tattered Prince as this demonic/Mephistophelian figure, something which I think is partly informed by his love for the (admittedly accurate) idea of Euron as a monster in a pirate costume.

Now it's been a long while since I read ADWD, but I came away thinking of The Tattered Prince as sort the Westerosi version of Hank Scorpio- an undoubtedly villainous character but Affably Evil and a Benevolent Boss. Like I thought the idea was that while his actions aren't that different from Vargo Hoat, he's a much more benevolent character and his cruelties are in line with a warped sense of justice.

I mean I do think he also plays into this theme of various characters having a Psycho Sidekick and/or enforcer on their side (Tyrion has Bronn, Sansa has Sandor and probably later Lothar Brune, Arya has Jaqen and Sandor, Davos has Saan, Doran has Hotah, Stannis has Clayton Suggs, Wyman Manderly has Garth....). But yeah, I came away with a very different sense of The Tattered Prince than Poor Quentyn.

PQ is hit and miss. I vehemently disagree with his ideas for Jon's story going forward.

@Hodor I don't see how it can't be both.

I haven't heard of this but I think I can see that because of the deal motif with The Tattered Prince. I'm assuming that's the reason. Quentyn makes a deal with the devil and then dies. It'd be more credible if Barristan dies soon.

GRRM is a huge Marvel fan and a horror writer so the idea that GRRM would use a Mephistophelian figure isn't out of the realm of possibility.

But I think PQ is jumping the gun too soon. Minor characters are subject to change book to book.

I never really thought much of the Tattered Prince.

The theory that Jon will be okay pre-dates the show. It's borne out of Jon being a main character.

That's why people theorize that Bran and BR will bring back Jon with some ice magic because they want to believe there's a better way than R'hllor resurrection that'll leave Jon intact.

I mean Jon being placed in an icy cell would stop him from looking like a zombie but it wouldn't do anything to his mind. GRRM also seems to phrase resurrection in terms of spirit. So it's not about a decomposing brain. It's about a change to your spirit.

And Jon's mind being with Ghost seems like it would exasperate the problem.

How do you detach even Jon's mind from Ghost's?

It seems like the set up is for someone to free Jon of Ghost's body by executing Ghost and then bringing Jon back into his regular body with the downside of bringing Ghost along for the ride.

Then you're not looking at Jon. You're looking at an inhuman chimera character.

A character that doesn't need to eat and sleep. And a character that can light their swords on fire.

edited 28th May '17 12:45:12 PM by MadSkillz

Rereading ASOS I think in a possible solution for Jon's death plotline .maybe He can be revived by Mance Rayder's cloak that is made of red Silk from Asshai, maybe it have the power to heal Jon's wonds .

From asoiaf wiki : Mance was attacked by a shadowcat while ranging, and was healed by a wildling woman. While he recuperated, she mended his torn cloak with swatches of red fabric.

The book says that the red silk is from Asshai .

edited 31st May '17 3:34:21 PM by LoutishHelminthic

One thing I feel that's missing from this series is the Jewish element and also how economic activity isn't really showcased. (Jewish history in the Middle Ages and beyond is fascinating.)

The closest thing we get are maybe the Braavosi but they're not really present in the story until much later and it's more as assassins than as lenders.

I mean that's a pretty large jump to resurrection and it's not well woven in like R'hllor resurrection is.

Eh, you can't include a parallel to every ethnic/religious/cultural group that existed in Europe or Eurasia (or Eurasia+Africa) in the Middle Ages. If you did, you'd have dozens of distinct ethnic groups, each (or at least most) with their own languages, not all of which would belong to one or even two or three language families, and you'd also have complex histories between the different peoples that would result in all sorts of politics and so on.

A parallel to Judaism or the Jewish people might be nice, but I don't blame GRRM for not including it (or at least not including an obvious one), any more than I blame him for not having parallels to the Balkans (except maybe the Disputed Lands sort of, a bit) or the Roma people or the Holy Roman Empire or Poland, etc.

If we wanted books that were 5000 pages each, sure, GRRM could include a parallel to any number of cultures. Would that serve the story he's telling, though, or would it just be world building for its own sake? (Also, is it really world building if you're going so far to include everything that you end up basically changing the names of real cultures and people and telling their histories as-is?)

EDIT: Also, the story of the Rhoynar and their exodus and eventual assimilation in Dorne sort of parallels the story of the Jewish people at one or two points in their history, but obviously it's only a partial match and so on, and the Rhoynar have actually assimilated and been accepted so much that their status in Westeros is completely different (and arguably much better, albeit at the cost of their distinct cultural identity) than that of the Jews in Europe in the Middle Ages.

edited 31st May '17 7:46:11 PM by BestOf

Had forgotten about this discussion.

RE Jon, well personally, I think he'll be "okay" because of a combination of a Fire Magic and Ice Magic (which is fitting given his ancestry/the title of the book series). So resurrection through Rh'llor but prior to that being warged into Ghost with Bran communicating with him- or perhaps communicating with him post resurrection.

RE Judaism in the series, as I've mentioned, I see the Braavosi is somewhat of a parallel given their slavery and exodus narrative (even if as mentioned the story is partly a take off on Venetian legendary history). But I've also wondered about the Norvoshi as a Jewish parallel- or more accurately, a rather negative portrayal of Israelite/Monotheist theocracy.

Harvard is now offering a Game of Thrones course.

This sounds like an excuse to watch Game of Thrones in the classroom.

You could far more about what the Middle Ages were actually like by taking an actual class on medieval history, rather than having it spoonfed to you through compare-and-contrast with a TV show.

edited 1st Jun '17 11:23:06 AM by CrimsonZephyr

Teach the dam books!!!

Dagnabbit, I wish I was smart enough to go to Harvard XD

Just saw it.

He's right. Almost nobody ever tries to deal with an outside context problem at the expense of one they have dealt with for years.

Evil you know, really.

What?

Cover for the first new issue of ACOK's comic and a couple pages.

Stannis looks pretty much how I pictured him but leaner.

Pathface is huge. I was expecting a short, stocky man. Not someone who is both tall and obese.

Also they may be taking a little too much influence from the show. Shireen has light brown hair here too on the cover. On the pages, it's not coal-black but more dark brown or close to black.

Recently, I thinking a lot of how can the wall may fall, someone here have a idea ?

edited 8th Jun '17 4:43:26 PM by LoutishHelminthic

I think GRRM's laid it out it out pretty clear.

The Horn of Joramun will be the catalyst.

And there's been enough focus on Sam's Horn to think that it's that Horn.

So who blows it? Well looking at who is around him, it'll likely be Euron.

A case could be made for Jaquen blowing it. A member of a death cult unleashing death on Westeros .

In fact, you know what that sounds like? It sounds like what the Faceless Men did to Valyria by serving as a catalyst to a destruction of the empire.

Valyria dies in flames and Westeros dies by ice.

Also it makes the Others' invasion of Westeros partly Arya's fault (the War of Five Kings is alreasg parlly her fault)

I have some other thought about the fall of the wall.

We may will know Skagos by Davos POV,and by The World Of Ice And Fire we know that Skagosi still do Human sacrifice for the Weirwoods.

I think if maybe if they think that The Others as their gods, like Craster, and may the wall will fall on this Davos plotline as Skagos means stone in old tongue and the talk about wake the dragons from stone .

This is all conjecture of mine .

edited 9th Jun '17 12:41:03 AM by LoutishHelminthic

Not impossible.

Typically, plot event shakers in this series are well-seeded throughout the story though.

Skagos is a bit too out there and I'm not sure how much time Davos can actually spend there without slowing down the whole storyline in the North.

I mean Davos can't still be on Skagos when the Wall falls around the end of TWOW/ beginning of ADOS.

And I think there's a good chance that Davos ditches Stannis to save his family from the GC in TWOW.

edited 9th Jun '17 12:49:16 AM by MadSkillz

How the hell is the War of the Five Kings Arya's fault? Littlefinger started it!

I said partially her fault.

It has to do with freeing Nymeria.

Nymeria ate the animal that Robert was hunting which led him to go after the boar that killed him

What? When?

Back in AGOT. It's easy to miss.

I mean it's possible it really was some wolves though.