A Song Of Ice And Fire

I think people are confusing Show!Varys for Book!Varys. Book!Varys would have stabbed Ned eventually down the line, for the same reasons he whacked Kevan and Pycelle.

He simply thought Ned could have been a useful asset to him in the same way other disgraced Westerosi rejects (Jon Con, Barristan, Tyrion) have been in the past. That's part of his pattern. If he sees a useful asset he will latch on to it if he sees there's something he can use there.

Ultimately there was no one at KL that Ned Stark truly could have trusted. He had to go it alone and think clearly. He had the office of the Hand to protect him and he could have fired and gotten rid of people he disliked but he didn't use that to make changes. He should have done what Tyrion did, replace Janos and others with Bronn and Jacelyn Bywater, ban Pycelle from Small Council meetings and so on.

But even then it's a close run thing.

I agree that Ned should have been a more impactful/forceful Hand. For Pycelle it's not enough to ban him (if he could), the Citadel would want a Grand Maester on the council. It would be interesting if Ned brought some more northern lords or heirs south with him. Wyman Manderly has a heir of good age, so Wyman can come assist Ned in the Master of Coins Department (using a US department structure for ref).

One of Ned's big challenges was that he didn't have allies. I think he should have brought some northern and Vale lords with him. He has a good relationship with the Vale from his fostering, so I feel like Ned would go their first instead of Cat's riverlords.

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My guess? The North getting involved very well makes it so someone like Stannis could win, for the North could very well have tipped it in his favor had Robb joined up. Which is a big no for people like Varys and Littlefinger. Varys would very likely escape the Red Keep, but a quick victory for the king results in a more stable, united realm. In this regard, perhaps the best thing Varys could hope for was that Ned gets sent to the wall and the Northmen go home.

The North doesn't get involved, the war burns the realm down, with the Lannisters likely winning. Then Aegon comes, and no one really cares to help the Lannisters.

edited 16th Jan '17 8:58:19 PM by SilentColossus

Fair points all around.

But honestly, I am still convinced Jon will be the new king, who is, ironically, not entirely accepted, despite having a good claim, one better than all the other Targaryens. Heck, there are clear clues to it happening. Namely, Mormont's raven calling him king.

If Jon does become king, people will just be getting someone like Stannis, who will be praised for being honourable and just, while Stannis is still vilified. I can totally see that happening.

And having Jeyne Poole as his queen just makes me think that it will sow seeds for resentment for several houses, having been passed over in favour of a steward's whelp. Though the Tyrells cannot complain....

A house of bastards and stewards ends up winning the war.

Course, if Jon does win, it will probably be due to Sansa and Bloodraven.

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.

You're really wedded to the King Jon idea.

If it doesn't happen, are you going to be disappointed or something?

I used to think Bran was going to end up as the new Three Eyed Crow but now I think Bran is meant to be the one to be Lord of Winterfell/King in the North by the end and Jon is a red herring.

I'm still not sure where Sansa's future is though. Maybe she's his right hand woman or she rules the Vale in union with the North.

edited 17th Jan '17 2:22:16 AM by MadSkillz

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."

I actually cannot see how Bran could be the lord of Winterfell. Mainly cause he is stuck with Bloodraven.

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.

I am just hoping for the least depressing ending possible.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.

Jon being King makes no legitimate sense. He's a Bastard or the offspring of an illegal secret marriage.

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Regardless he's still the son of a highly respected prince.

That is the face of a man who just ate a kitten. Raw.

Rhaeghar is respected by Barristan, Jaime, Dany, Jon Con. The rest of Westeros see him as a rapist Loser Son of Loser Dad. The Dornish are not fans.

Rhaeghar is far less respected than Ned Stark is.

We don't know how most view Rhaegar. Most likely, the people that were loyal to the Targayrens were the ones to respect him, with the rest having a neutral or negative view on the man.

Only as a whole, though. As you said, Jaime likes him.

I believe Rhaegar is still remembered fondly due to nostalgia for the era when he was alive, not the one with Joffrey and Tommen.

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.

About the only nostalgia we get is that old man Arya runs into in A Clash of Kings who says "the old king would not allow this" and Arya finds out he means Aerys II. That scene is a bit like a non-sequitir but from supplementary material, like it seems that Aerys II mostly oppressed the nobility rather than the smallfolk that he listened to Arthur Dayne's requests and expanded rights to the Kingswood, and the fact that the people of King's Landing hate the Lannisters, I can get that people might like him but we hear no real neutral view on Rhaeghar or that time.

Something to consider is region. The Crownlands have been the Targaryans direct vassals for centuries, and hence are steeped in loyalism.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.

Not so sure about that. I mean in Aerys' time, the Darklyns of Duskendale rose in rebellion and were snuffed out with extreme prejudice. And you know the people of King's Landing rose up that one time and snuffed out the Dragons in the Dragonpit.

Even House Velaryon, who the Targaryens intermarried with, eventually bent the knee to Robert .

The Targaryens are liked individually more than they are collectively. Even after the Rebellion, Baelor is still the Blessed, Daeron is still a hero for Robb Stark and Jon Snow and Stannis stares at the Painted Table of Aegon I and mutters in private "I will complete your mission".

What? Why? They contributed nothing.

You know your dynasty's a failure when you rule a continent for 300 years and yet your greatest king has to brag about building half of a poorly maintained dirt road.

edited 18th Jan '17 4:04:38 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."

The city of Kings Landing and all its monuments, The Kingsguard, Abolishing Droit du Seigneur, separating church and state, putting a muzzle on the ironborn so the coasts of Westeros can have some peace. Liberating the riverlands, giving it autonomy and the longest peace it ever had.

That's What the Romans Have Done for Us.

More than any Lord Paramount, more than Robert since his rebellion and hardly nothing. There's a reason Stannis is a Target fanboy.

A Target fanboy? That's probably a typo, but I prefer the idea of Stannis being a huge believer in department stores.

"Canada Day is over, and now begins the endless dark of the Canada Night."

Rhaegar was well loved by the small folk. Remember, people cheered twice as loudly for him as they did Tywin, which is also four times as loud as his dad.

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.

Yeah, the only one who seems to go along with the "Wicked Rapist" Narrative is Robert himself, the Dornish just think he was a disrespectful asshole. Everyone else treated Rhaegar like he was a hero out of a song and that his death was a tragedy.

edited 19th Jan '17 1:34:35 AM by SonOfSharknado

My various fanfics.

Yeah, you are absolutely right there.

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.

I can understand the Dornish thinking that, considering he went "I'm already married to a Dornish Princess but screw her, I want some she-wolf tail", but yeah, Rhaegar was seen as the realm's Knight in Shining Armor regardless of how people felt about his father.

That is the face of a man who just ate a kitten. Raw.

we don't have neutral/unbiased opinions of Rhaegar. We have folks in KL and people in/directly affected by the rebellion. The people that cheer twice as loud for Rhaegar were westernmen and this was pre-Rebellion.

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"I actually cannot see how Bran could be the lord of Winterfell. Mainly cause he is stuck with Bloodraven."

Well first thing, that'd make for two books' worth of very repetitive Bran chapters (synopsis: Bran turns into a tree a bit more; has some freaky dreams).

Second, if the "Hold the Door!" thing is a book spoiler, then we know Bran is at some point going to go through a door. (Me and my wild tinfoil predictions)

But also:

• he's the only living Stark with any experience ruling Winterfell
• Bran the Builder, who dreams the Dream of Spring, rebuilds Winterfell? Yes.
• the Wart/King Arthur parallels

What would it mean for the Stark lineage, if Bran is unable to have kids (if)? Maybe he's the end of it. Maybe he fosters/adopts a son of Sansa/Arya. Jon and Rickon I don't see having kids, for different but closely related reasons re: being dead.

We don't know if Rickon will die. (Well, unless it's shown or implied in the teaser chapters of the next book, which I've not read.)

The "Hold the door" thing is pretty much confirmed as canon; the showrunners have talked about how shocked they were when GRRM told them about it. That means it's from GRRM, not the show people.

EDIT: Still, we don't know what will happen to Hodor there. We just know there will be a "there", so to speak.

edited 19th Jan '17 9:18:54 AM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.