A Song Of Ice And Fire

Cersei says that Robert told Joffrey strong Kings act boldly often, Mad.

Ned never says that Robert never cared about his kids. Ned does think in his P.O.V. chapter that the Robert wouldn't let Cersei kill his children when he hears LF's story about Roberts twin bastards.

We see Stannis much more than Ned, yet we get to see how much he cares about his children. He mentions it all the time in his thoughts and to the characters in the story.

Oberyn certainly loved his daughters and they loved him back, but that doesn't necessarily make him a good parent. Lysa loves her son, but she did a terrible job with him. Oberyns not that bad, but as I recall they wanted to invade and sack Old Town killing thousands of innocents even though the Hightowers had nothing to do with Oberyns death. Mace's kids are at the very least well adjusted.

It's worth mentioning that Edric says Robert taught him how to fight and Stannis says that Robert "played the father". Stannis says that Robert didn't care about his kids, but he's not exactly unbiased. George says that Robert loved his brothers, but Stannis says he didn't. It would be like reading Brienne's P.O.V. and taking her at her word when it comes to Stannis.

edited 31st Jan '15 12:01:02 AM by 940131

I remember. Cersei is making a guess though. She doesn't know for sure. Besides I'm not sure Robert told Joffrey that in a tone that suggests it was friendly advice or if he even told Joffrey that directly.

Also Ned says that the Robert he knew would've done something if Cersei had killed his kids but the present Robert might have done let it slide as he's practiced shutting his eyes to things he did not wish to see.

Ned is also a POV who we see interact with his kids and we have his family as PO Vs Stannis isn't. a POV and neither is his family. They shouldn't even be compared.

You can be a good father and have ruthless kids. Plus Oberyn raised his bastards kids himself.

Mace pushed one of his kids too far and got him crippled. Also we don't know how much of the parenting he did.

Also correction: Stannis said that Robert's love for him was nothing more than dutiful.

edited 31st Jan '15 12:14:26 AM by MadSkillz

1) Come on, Mad. You're reaching really far.

2) "Things he did not wish to see." It doesn't suggest that he doesn't care, like you said.

3) They are. We get into Davos' head. He worships Stannis. Do we ever hear about Stannis spending time with his daughter? Isn't it safer to assume he's not around much (like most High Lords). Jaime, Ned, are just a few of the many children that weren't being raised by their parents. Most kids are fostered. Ned came to see Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon as closer family than his own because of it. The same is true of Robert. Why are we assuming Stannis is different? We've been told many times that Stannis has a hard time connecting with people.

4) It's not about them being ruthless. It's more about them being jerks. The people of Old Town had nothing to do with it and they wanted to go there and butcher thousands for it.

5) That wasn't his intention though. You're right about us not knowing how much parenting he did. We do know that he loves his kids fiercely though.

Correction: He says Roberts regard for him was nothing more than dutiful.

On a side note, I'm starting to love Stannis again. I have felt from the very beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined. Hard was the word men used when they spoke of Stannis, and hard he was.

edited 31st Jan '15 12:54:43 AM by 940131

I think Stannis probably is something of a distant father, but if he is it's because he's a socially awkward dullard who's not very good at displaying affection to anyone, not out of any particular malice. He is very, very invested in protecting his daughter's legal rights of inheritance (which, due to her sex, would usually be ignored), and I think that's really the only way he knows how to show kindness.

Well doesn't care enough to do something about it.

Stannis hasn't had his kid fostered. I actually get the feeling that Stannis shelters her because of her affliction.

And Oberyn loves his kids too.

I'll give you the rest.

I can one up those quotes about Stannis. Here are my faves:

There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man.- Varys

This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some.-Tywin

Few of the birds that Maester Aemon had sent off had returned as yet. One reached Stannis, though. One found Dragonstone, and a king who still cared.-Samwell Tarly

His eyes were sunk in deep pits, his close-cropped beard no more than a shadow across his hollow cheeks and bony jawbone. Yet there was power in his stare, an iron ferocity that told Asha this man would never, ever turn back from his course.-Asha Greyjoy

I find it really hard to dislike Stannis even though he can be a butt sometimes.

He's got the determination of a shonen hero protagonist.

edited 31st Jan '15 1:33:10 AM by MadSkillz

And all of the legitimate Stark children resemble their mother Catelyn more than Ned. I hope you don't think Catelyn was up to any hijinks for that to happen.

Didn't Arya resemble Ned more?

I think he just forgot about Arya. Although Arya along with Rickon probably resemble Ned the least in personality.

Something interesting I found on this site:

Generation Xerox: "Again, with the standard Baratheon blue eyes, black hair, and strong body, Gendry's the spitting image of Robert in his youth, much like Renly. He also inexplicably has a fondness for hammers as weapons, horned helms, brash heroics, and Stark girls."

"He also has a rather more flexible version of his uncle Stannis' sense of justice. In fact, he also comes across as a much less boisterous Robert, while still quite unconsciously charming and good (if a bit bluff) with people somewhat like Renly, with that Stannis-side that sits up and takes notice at social injustice. He's also Stannis-like in that he can concentrate on getting a job done to completion, as well as break down a task into steps leading to his goal (even when it means doing bits he doesn't particularly want to do to get there). And, like all Baratheons, he'll listen to advice, but may not necessarily take it."

I never noticed the similarities between Gendry and Stannis. I kinda like him more for it now.

This actually makes me think that Gendry would make a pretty decent king if he was trained in court politics and legitimized as Stannis' heir.

thinking about is some more

hmmmm

Edric seems like the Robert to Gendry's Stannis.

He's kind of rude, easily irritated, chaste, bitter and standoffish. Although Gendry is way less extreme than Stannis of course.

edited 31st Jan '15 1:59:51 AM by MadSkillz

@Dr Dougsh Again, I'm not saying that Stannis doesn't care about Shireen. Just that he's probably not in her life very much. Most Westerosi Highlords are fostered and the ones that aren't are usually raised by Maesters and Septas. Their biological parents are around, but it's not like modern parenting.

@Mad Well, Stannis was considering fostering Shireen at the Eyrie in exchange for military support.

It's pretty awesome that Tywin considered Stannis the biggest threat of them all. Bigger han the Arryn-Stark-Tully power bloc and bigger than Renly's army of 100,000 men. This was when Stannis had less than 5,000.

Oberyn loves his kids. But loving them doesn't necessarily make someone a good parent. Cersei loved Joffrey. Lysa loved Robert. He's better than them of course, I'm just saying.

Yeah. Stannis is pretty epic. Probably the best general in Westeros.

I think, of the three Baratheon brothers Stannis would have made the best King. If for no other reason that he'd execute the likes of Varys, LF and possibly Pycelle.

edited 31st Jan '15 2:54:46 AM by 940131

I find that hard to believe. has any of them ever committed a crime before the start of the series?

Ser Barristan once told me the rot in King Aerys's reign began with Varys. The eunuch should never have been pardoned.

Two men who were prepared to come forward died suddenly on their rounds. Do not trifle with me, my lord, I saw the proofs Jon Arryn laid before the small council. If I had been king, you would have lost more than your office, I promise you that, but Robert shrugged away your little lapses. 'They all steal' I recall him saying. 'Better a thief we know than one we don't, the next man might be worse'. Lord Petyr's words in my brother's mouth, I'll warrant. Littlefinger had a nose for gold, and I'm certain he arranged matters so the crown profited as much from your corruption as you did.

The way he sees it, both of them are corrupt.

edited 31st Jan '15 5:55:16 AM by 940131

Isn't that referring to Slynt?

All hail King Gendry Baratheon, first of his name!

Read a pair of chapters focusing on Cersei and Jaime. Once again Cersei continues to divide the realm due to her irrational hatred of the Tyrells in defiance of all sense, though I greatly enjoyed reading Kevan's scolding, especially when he went "Screw you, I care more about my family than power, and if you piss me off I can make life difficult for you."

That's the point where Kevan goes from "minor background character" to "awesome". And yeah, Cersei's dumber than a bag full of hammers.

X4 Yes. That's referring to Slynt, but Stannis believes that the idea to let Slynt stay was LF's.

I don't think her hatred of the Tyrells is irrational. Even Kevan mentions in his P.O.V. chapter that he's starting to understand why she hates them so much. It's just that she really shouldn't be plotting to weaken them when they're whats keeping their regime afloat.

I always thought Cersei came across as more competent in A Go T.

edited 31st Jan '15 2:15:26 PM by 940131

Bad news

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/01/31/game-of-thrones-the-winds-of-winter-not-coming-out-in-2015

SHOCKER OF SHOCKERS.

Actually, Kevan seems a decent dad, but as far as being a decent person...that's controversial to say the very least.

Rodrik Cassell also seems like he was a good father.

Anyways, I'm not panicking. 2016 was always likely, and this just means it's not on schedule. If Martin announces it's done in a month, it'd need 4 months to publication.

edited 31st Jan '15 2:41:44 PM by Lightysnake

Yep. Gotta go through all the editing and whatnot.

Als, one other thing that I think Cersei is stupid for: Thinking she can outwit Olenna Tyrell and kill her.

edited 31st Jan '15 2:58:25 PM by theLibrarian

You know, I'm truly hoping Gurm does something unexpected, because as far as where the narrative points right now, there's zero chance of my candidates Stannis "the Mannis" Baratheon and Aegon "Who Cares That I'm An Obvious Phony, I'm Still Your Best Option" Targaryen to make it.

To be honest I can imagine Danny staying in Essos and re-establishing the Valyrian Freehold.

Though I do hope that we eventually find out what caused the Doom, too. Isn't the common speculation a meteor?

I thought the Targs' ego grew massive enough to collapse into a singularity.

No, the Targaryens were just a relatively weak noble family that only moved to Dragonstone because I think one of them had a vision of the Doom?

I thought the doom happened because of a volcano.

The World of Ice and Fire reveals that Valyria'ss 14 volcanoes all burst at once, immediately annihilating the Freehold for good and all. Aerion Targaryen was a Dragonlord whose daughter had visions of the coming Doom, and he opted to beat feet while the getting was good.