Bleach

Heh it would have been way cool if we saw the original Blood War. Like seeing Yammamoto & the original captains at their most monstrous levels of brutality & pragmatism going up against a younger Yhwach & his first army. I'm pretty sure that Colonel Sander's looking Quincy was most likely alive back then too.

Sad we never got that.

x2 No he very clearly reacts with shock upon seeing his dead subordinates from 1000 years ago once he realized what the skeletons were, and he even remembers their names, which is something Yhwach should normally not bother if he didn't have some twisted attachment to them. Royd who had copied Yhwachs personality and memories reacted the way Yhwach should have.

I mean I think Yhwach is pretty evil regardless.

That's not Yhwach. That's Royd disguised as Yhwach. He knows who they are, but he doesn't know how to react initially, and even goes "Uh..." for a panel. Yamamoto is quite openly surprised that Yhwach has any feeling for his men whatsoever, implying this was not a reaction he expected.

He didn't have Yhwach's personality, he had his memories. He had no guide for knowing how Yhwach would react. And Yhwach himself plainly didn't give the slightest hint of a damn about a single subordinate he ever had.

I would argue that personality and memories are pretty strongly intertwined. His impression of Yhwach was certainly convincing in all other respects.

Also I don't know what you're on about with him pausing to go 'uh...'. He paused because the horror of what he was seeing was sinking in.

Look, we know Yhwach is a very naughty naughty man, but even bad people can react like human beings sometimes. If Royd with Yhwach's personality reacted with shock and horror, then Yhwach himself would have felt the exact same emotions.

Exactly. Yhwach already showed he can have other emotions besides smug and moustaches when he got defeated.

And for a guy like Yhwach there's no reason to even remember the names of his henchmen including those who died a long time ago because they'll do what he wants regardless. Of course for a self-righteous narcissist like Yhwach he will make it about himself.

edited 30th Dec '16 7:28:46 PM by OmegaRadiance

Blue & Orange Morality then.

Yhwach is a twisted monster & so he thinks differently. There's also the idea that he could have held his long-dead comrades in higher regard then his current army. What if back then he was somewhat more decent then he is now?

For him, it's not a thousand years ago. Yhwach had been awake for about nine years at that point. He doesn't need anything but a decent memory to just know former elite subordinates by sight. And again, Royd expressed clear confusion at first as how to respond.

Again, people seem to be overlooking the bit where Royd literally has no idea how to respond and the second he's finished being useful Yhwach obliterates him, with Yamamoto going "oh, right, that's the guy I remember there." Anyone trying to claim Yhwach cared about his subordinates in any respect is...honestly reaching and ignoring some vital evidence.

I mean, we saw Yhwach a thousand years ago. He was literally exactly the same and was committing mass slaughter on the Quincies then, too. Haschwalth also threatened the life of one of those guys with absolutely no hint he'd suffer repercussions for carrying that out. At the same time? Haschwalth, Bazz and probably Accutrone were all soldiers with him a millennium ago, with Yhwach describing Haschwalth as his 'other half' and holding him well above any other subordinate. He didn't even bat an eye at murdering the lot of them. And Accutrone implies strongly this is how Yhwach has always been.

edited 30th Dec '16 7:39:14 PM by Lightysnake

We're not overlooking that part where he 'literally has no idea how to respond' or 'expressed clear confusion at first about how to respond'- we're saying that never happened. That's simply not how it went down. There was a moment of confusion before he recognized them, and then the 'shock' portion of 'shock and horror' happened before the 'horror' portion.

edited 30th Dec '16 7:46:06 PM by Gilphon

I don't remember exactly how the scene went down, but I will say we can't know for sure if Royd would react like Yhwach would react just because he had his memories. He could have just been reacting like a normal person would, but Yhwach...is not a normal person.

Bazz didn't expect that at all.

And he was acting the way Yhwach would. Yamamoto told him to look closer and that's when he sw they were his suboridnates that died. Before that they all appeared as creepy skeletons, and he did a perfect job as Yhwach till he apologized. We've seen Yhwach surprised, smug, arrogant, etc plenty as the story goes on. Mostly when things go his way or catches him by surprise. Beyond being the only one who could handle it's power Yhwach didn't know how to react to Yama's Banaki because he never saw the Bankai and its full abilities originally.

And remembering them for nine years does say a lot, because they should have been forgotten without an second thought considering how Yhwach normally acts.

Well...No. Because it did happen. In chapter 509. After he recognizes them, there's a panel of him going "Uh..." with a befuddled look, before he does his freakout.

As this is completely contrary to how yhwach reacts around treating subordinates in literally every other instance? Yes, anyone trying to give him a redeeming quality is missing a few things.

He has Yhwach's memories. That'd include said subordinates and their names. He'd probably recognize Luders and Ibern, too from the same. It doesn't mean he cares. You're again missing the order of events. He recognizes them after Yamamoto says so. And THEN after Yamamoto's monologue, he shows confusion. And if someone thinks Yhwach would hesitate to cut down subordinates to get to an enemy, I feel they've safely ignored the next one hundred and fifty chapters after 509

If someone can explain to me why there's a panel of Royd looking confused and going "Uh..." for a moment before flipping out and Yamamoto being surprised he 'possesses a human heart' please inform me.

edited 30th Dec '16 7:54:17 PM by Lightysnake

Reading the chapter right now. 'Yhwach' implies he considers Yamamoto's necromancy a vile ability, then reacts with shock as he sees his old subordinates and calls them all by name. You are putting too much emphasis on a single panel where all he does is utter a single syllable. Which is the beginning of a scream, so far as I can tell.

That's not confusion, it's shock.

edited 30th Dec '16 7:55:32 PM by Arha

He's already starting freaking out at that point- he screamed at Yamamoto when he turned to leave, and makes several horror-stricken faces. The 'uh' you're referring is him is the quiet at the start of a scream.

And yeah it's unintuitive with the rest of what we see from him. It's almost like it's sign that there's some nuance to the character and that the things that come out of his mouth aren't bullshit, but things he actually believes on some level, despite being nuts and vile enough to not consider screwing them over contradictory.

edited 30th Dec '16 7:56:55 PM by Gilphon

After he had 'shown shock' at seeing them. Again. It's not Yhwach. It's a guy with his memories trying to discern how to react. And that doesn't really look to be the start of a scream whatsoever. That expression on his face is pure confusion

Oh, and he thinks it's such a 'vile ability' Yhwach gleefully offers to revive Yamamoto's subordinates and send them after him, too once he steals Zanka no Tachi. Not really seeing the consistency between Yhwach and Royd there.

It's not just 'unintuitive,' it's completely contradictory to everything we see before and after

edited 30th Dec '16 7:59:25 PM by Lightysnake

Is Yhwach already on the Complete Monster page?

He is.

As it states, he is a horrible monster of course.

If you don't want to see it as shock and horror because it fits your interpretation better, fine, but don't assume we don't know what we're talking about just because we don't agree with you.

It's not contradictory with him saying he considers the Stern 'comrades who help each other out', calling Ichigo 'his son born in darkness', or letting the Sterns believe he hates infighting.

And it looks exactly like the start of a scream. His mouth is falling open, his eyes are falling away from Yama and towards the corpse, he's visibly shaken unlike his usual demeanour, it's the middle of a whole bunch of shots that show him as varying degrees of freaking out... there's absolutely no sign that 'calmly consider how I should react to this' is on his mind at all.

edited 30th Dec '16 8:07:45 PM by Gilphon

I agree with other posters in that there's an issue of Blue-and-Orange Morality going on with Yhwach. He just wasn't normal from birth. It's been his entire existence to steal souls and soul-abilities just to survive. It doesn't create a creature who can be deemed to be capable of thinking like an ordinary human because there's absolutely nothing ordinary about him and his situation, not from his very birth. Given the circumstances, of course his attitude towards people and the concept of life and death would be utterly crazy and bizarre. His entire existence is utterly crazy and bizarre. His very existence and his very concept of existence is just an utterly different playing field to everyone else's.

I also agree with Arha and Gilphon's interpretation of the behaviour during the Bankai scene. That's shock, horror, confusion and disgust.

edited 30th Dec '16 8:12:55 PM by Wyldchyld

I simply think you're overlooking a great deal of evidence tor each the conclusion that Yhwach himself is remotely disgusted instead of Royd.

Sure. But that's Royd's disgust. Not Yhwach's.

As Yhwach himself instantly mocks Yamamoto about using the exact same technique on him after casually vaporizing a subordinate who did nothing but his job to the letter, I think it's safe to say Yhwach himself had entirely different views of the matter than a guy with his memories and personality. Especially with how he treats at least two/possibly three subordinates from a thousand years prior.

I mean, the issue whether or not the real Yhwach would've reacted like Royd-Yhwach did is an old argument I don't expect to go anywhere now, but you've taken a new and weird angle to it with the idea that Royd was apparently level-headed enough on the inside to consciously decide to completely lose his composure and turn into a screaming mess.

Also, more subjectively and personally, I find the interpretation of Yhwach that says he simply doesn't care about anyone else considerably less interesting than the interpretation where he can both sincerely care about and not bat an eye about killing them when they've served their purpose.

edited 30th Dec '16 8:25:04 PM by Gilphon

Yhwach has shown an interesting range of behaviour across the span of the final arc, that has included a range of emotions. I believe Royd took them to a greater extreme than Yhwach would have displayed them, but Yhwach's a Blue-and-Orange Morality character. His entire existence and his entire approach to existence is completely incompatible with anything other characters - including other Quincies - comprehend.

I think that's two different arguments: what would've been more interesting and what we actually got. Since from everything we see, Yhwach does not care at all about his own subordinates as actual people, and thinks they exist for him to consume, discard and use at will.

The issue there is we know Royd is attempting to play Yhwach, and Yhwach himself is not horrified, disgusted or upset by Yamamoto's bankai or dead subordinates whatsoever. Royd was either legitimately freaked by it, or acting as he thought he should.

To some extent. Yhwach is defined by selfishness and greed, and the notion everything exists for him, but he also seems to loathe the concepts of loyalty and honor. He's not really operating on a plane that's impossible to understand. I also don't think Yhwach's behavior gels with Royd's whatsoever, since he immediately threatens to utilize Zanka no Tachi's zombie brigade on Yamamoto.

edited 30th Dec '16 8:32:00 PM by Lightysnake

Oh, it's absolutely a separate argument. I wasn't really claimed it was the same thing. Just throwing it out there, I suppose.

But, y'know, you can't say 'everything we see' supports your interpretation when there are, in fact, several times where he says things or express emotions that cut against it. You can argue that one line can be interpreted this way, and that moment can be interpreted that way, but saying there's no evidence at all against your position is just being obstinate.