Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Felix

edited 10th Dec '17 4:53:23 PM by Vampireandthen

to both versions of Scarecrow.

To Felix.

I have an interesting question about comic book crossover villains, in the very first Spider-Man Superman crossover from the 70s, Lex Luthor was trying to destroy the world, because the world didn't recognize his genus or something and Dr. Octopus tried to stop him. I am bit biased here, just because that doesn't jive with Pre Crisis Lex's usual characterization (though he was inconsistently written) but this work is likely out of cannon and this Lex may count.

Coincidence again... I'm handling him next. I'll have the EP up in a bit.

Get out, I am glad I did not accidentally steal your thunder this time, I will stay away from crossover villains unless I PM you from now on.

Yeah, Felix.

I think Ravok's onto something with Novel!Nolan!Scarecrow. Him being in on the whole plan makes him half of a Big Bad Duumvirate, and poisoning Gotham into insanity would have been enough for Ras if he wasn't a WIE.

I say go for it, with my blessing.

EDIT: After Linkara's review of that comic I also considered that version of Lex. I look forward to the EP.

edited 10th Dec '17 6:58:55 PM by PolarPhantom

Alright, on that...

What's the setting?

Superman Vs The Amazing Spider Man: The Battle of the Century was the first big superhero crossover comic between DC and Marvel (technically not the first intercompany crossover as I think they did a Wizard of Oz comic jointly beforehand) featuring... well, what else? The Man of Steel versus the Web Slinger. Overlord is out of right about this being out of canon, with Spider-Man and Superman casually placed in the same universe with no acknowledgement about any outside forces... the premise is Lex Luthor and Doc Ock have teamed up to pit their archenemies against each other in one final bid to eliminate them once and for all. Ock's fine with the blackmail scheme, but Lex, here? Has bigger plans...

Who is Lex Luthor? What has he done?

Basically a slightly different take on Pre-Crisis Lex (this was in the 70s, so Lex still had his brilliantly deep "my hair fell out so I'ma be evil" backstory), Lex introduces himself getting up to his usual shenanigans... rampaging around Metropolis in a giant steel robot, destroying buildings and putting dozens of lives at risk as he fights Superman and tries a variety of built-in tricks to destroy his arch-nemesis for good. Doesn't work, obviously... Lex is hurled behind bars and put under surveillance, where upon he meets Otto who's been locked up in a neighboring cell. Otto entertains Lex's desire to break out, only for Lex to actually put his plan into action with some technology he sneaked. Unleashing a painful signal that subdues and deafens the guards, Lex teams up with Otto and breaks out.

Now, to divert the path of their archenemies, Lex and Otto frame Superman for kidnapping Lois Lane and Mary Jane, pitting Spidey and Supes against each other while Lex and Otto escape onto an old Injustice Gang satellite. Lex, hypnotizing a man and keeping him as his enslaved puppet for months to guard one of his bases as back-up, tells Otto he plans to use a weather machine to threaten the world as the ultimate blackmail scheme and extort ten billion dollars from the planet's greatest nations lest he swamp the entire world in a hurricane whilst goading Supes and Spidey to their position with Mary and Lois as his hostages. Then Superman breaks into the satellite, and Lex... reveals the blackmail thing was a set-up. When Superman attempts to confront Lex on the innocent men, women, and children he's endangering, Lex laughs and states that the sole reason he led Superman here was to activate a series of disasters all across the globe, destroying the entire planet as the culmination of his "black ambition." Why? Petty spite at the world for not recognizing his genius — and to spite Superman, of course. Otto, horrified, destroys the machine, but Lex still gloats that a gigantic tidal wave is still going to wipe out the entire Atlantic Coast, attempting to murder Otto with his own bare hands in a fury before Spidey stops him. Superman stops the wave, Otto and Lex are defeated and put behind bars, and all is well.

Any mitigating factors?

I mean... the complete bastardization of the character aside, no. Lex is portrayed with absolutely none of his more redeemable characteristics here while his ego and vindictiveness are clocked up to eleven. Normally, Lex is the side against the "Oblivion" in Evil Versus Oblivion scenarios, but here? He attempts to destroy all of humanity out of spite. No Kryptonite influence like in Public Enemies — Lex is completely cognizant and aware of the mass death his scheme would entail — and I think he clears the standard with his ultimate "destroy the world because I'm a petty bastard" scheme.

Conclusion?

I can't believe I'm saying this for a version of Lex Luthor — Pre-Crisis Lex Luthor, at that — but... I'd say keep.

Thoughts?

edited 10th Dec '17 7:17:20 PM by Scraggle

Yep, this version of Lex is a keeper alright. Same with Felix Webber. Gotta love bad guys who try to kill tons of people over receding/non-existent hairlines.

I have similar basis against Pre Crisis Lex counting, but I think I agree, he count. That is good story, despite some wonky characterization for Lex, its not like the Frank Miller story featuring Lex everyone seems to loathe.

edited 10th Dec '17 7:14:57 PM by Overlord

Has The Evil Within 2 been discussed yet? If it has why hasn't Stefano Valentini been added he seems like a closed case on being a Complete Monster?

We have not discussed him yet. If you want to provide an effortpost (see my Lex proposal up a few posts for how that looks) go ahead.

Oh, by the way, ACW? Reactron has two entries on superman for some reason. Mind filing a request to fix that?

Yeah and for some reason Darkseid from Superman the Dark Side is missing from the Superman page.

Lex.

It's been a long time since I read the TDK novelization, but I thought I remembered Crane rationalizing the Gotham gassing as a large-scale experiment in the service of research to ultimately help with treating fear, though he had rather gone off the deep end by that point.

Uh... looking into the history, apparently Darkseid's entry was deleted and replaced with the second Reactron entry. Bizarre.

Felix and good ol' Lex Luthor.

A handy 'Yes' to Luthor. Love that purple suit of his. Same to Felix.

Alright, in all honesty? I'm bored, I think this could lead to some discussion, and the glorious Polar Phantom has given me his blessing (THANK YOU, GREAT ONE), so let's do it.

What's the work?

The Dark Knight Trilogy is an AWESOME trilogy of films by masterful director Christopher Nolan that details the story of a slightly more "grounded" take on Batman and his mythos than most other tales of the Caped Crusader.

Now, for the films, the only CM is the Joker. Ra's Al Ghul is a twisted WIE, Bane is just following orders from the woman he loves, and said woman is seeking to avenge her father's death. Then there's Jonathan Crane, the Scarecrow, who ultimately doesn't count due to lack of heinousness.

Today? We discuss the novelizations, by Dennis O'Neil (Batman Begins & The Dark Knight) and Greg Cox (The Dark Knight Rises), where Professor Crane gets a bit more noteworthy....

Who is he?

Professor Jonathan Crane, also known as the Scarecrow, is a major villain of Batman Begins, and a recurring villain throughout the rest of the trilogy.

A psychologist obsessed with fear and what effects it has on people, Crane kicks off Begins by making a deal with the terrorist Ra's Al Ghul, however his crimes in these novels extend back a bit farther than that...

What has he done?

Years ago, Crane was a professor of psychology at an esteemed university. In secret, he drugged several of his own students with an experimental "Fear Gas," that amplified panic, paranoia, and terror in those affected by it. By the time one of his students severely hurt herself by smashing through a glass window to assault a Santa Claus mannequin, Crane's illicit acts were discovered and he was quietly booted from the university, who kept his crimes under wraps to protect their reputation.

Unfortunately, Crane was able to weasel his way into a position at the mental institution Arkham Asylum. And with a buffet of already disturbed patients to prey on? Crane's sadistic love of tormenting people with his Fear Gas grew, with him using a burlap "mask" of a scarecrow to further horrify his patients.

When the leader of the ancient group the League of Assassins, Ra's Al Ghul, approached Crane with an offer to teat his Fear Gas on a....larger population, Crane happily accepted, and began working with crime lord Carmine Falcone to smuggle in a hellton of material Crane needs to form more Fear Gas. Crane later has Falcone put a hit out on the Attorney Rachel Dawes, who has begun suspecting Crane of illegal activity.

After Falcone gets caught by the vigilante Batman, who also saves Rachel from harm, Crane meets him in his cell....where he uses Fear Gas to drive the man insane to ensure he will never speak about Crane's evil.

Capturing Rachel and terrorizing her with Fear Gas, Crane is quick to discover that Batman has followed him to the lair where he mass produces the Fear Gas. Attempting to take Rachel as a hostage to escape, Crane gets more than he bargained for when Batman sprays him with his own fear gas. Though Crane is locked away for a few hours, he is soon released by Ra's Al Ghul's men, and Crane promptly leads a prison break with several other prisoners.

Once on the streets of Gotham, Crane realizes that his and Ra's' plan has begun...to spray Fear Gas throughout the entirety of Gotham and drive its millions of innocents into insane frenzies to tear each other apart. As Crane tries to avoid Police presence while thousands of Gothamites are affected by the Fear Gas, he spots a cop riding a horse. Jumping the man, Crane beats him to death with a rock before stealing his horse and leading numerous prisoners to tear through the streets of Gotham. When he spots Rachel Dawes and a young boy she is protecting, Crane tries to run them down and murder them before Rachel shoots him in the face with a taser.

Fleeing the scene, Crane goes into hiding in The Dark Knight after Batman saves Gotham, much to Crane's annoyance. After testing a new strain of his Fear Gas on a junkie before murdering the poor man, Crane becomes a drug dealer of dangerous hallucinogens in an attempt to build up his resources again. During one of his deals, Crane comes under attack from a group of wannabes vigilantes, who Crane instantly sprays with Fear Gas and orders be killed until the real Batman shows up and takes down Crane.

In his final appearance in the trilogy...Crane escapes confinement when the terrorist Bane takes over Gotham and turns it into a cesspool of crime. Allying with Bane, Crane becomes the sadistic judge of a twisted "courtroom" where those claimed to be the "real criminals" of Gotham, be they the wealthy or the cops or even Crane and Bane's own allies, are subjected to a Kangaroo Court. Crane giddily mocks the "suspects," taking twisted glee in their fear and the power he has over them, and always rules them "guilty" before giving them a choice: Death or Exile.

Everyone chooses Exile, obviously....except that "Exile" entails trying to walk their ways out of Gotham City on its frozen river to freedom. Each and every person dies from this "exile," as they break through the ice and freeze to death. When his latest batch of "suspects," headed by Commissioner James Gordon, choose "Death" over the awful end that Exile brings, Crane smugly orders them to walk across the frozen river as their death sentence, just enjoying the fact that they will have to die the more horrible way no matter what.

This is the last we see of Crane. Presumably he got locked up again, this time for good, after Bane was defeated and Gotham saved.

Freudian Excuse?

None shown in the novels.

Redeeming features?

Unlike most incarnations of Scarecrow, whether they count or not, Crane here has an actual motive beyond "terrorize people for the lulz"....I mean, that's a major reason, but not THE motive for him.

Crane proclaims in an inner monologue that he wants to eventually learn how to inoculate fear itself and make a new "Garden of Eden" on Earth. Now, this could easily be redeeming, but...it's really not, IMO.

Crane has a god complex. Pure and simple. Each and every time we get his POV, he's always boasting about how great and intelligent he is, and even notes that he's leaving his brain to science once he dies simply to show off how much greater it is than everyone else's. Crane's specific thought process about his Garden of Eden plans entail HIM as the so-called "benevolent ruler."

So while his motive could have been something redeeming, Crane himself is such a sadistic egomaniac that it is instead presented as him just having a god complex and wanting to change the world into a "brave new one" for him to preside over.

Also, while after he gets sprayed by his own Fear Gas, he goes....loopy for a while, this doesn't last all that long, and his POV shows that he was still aware of what he was doing and what was happening around him.

Heinousness?

The reason Crane doesn't count in the films...for all his petty crimes, he's ultimately just played as a guy in over his head with Ra's, who outright proclaims that Crane doesn't know of the League of Shadows' plans to destroy Gotham, instead thinking they're just holding it for ransom.

Here, though? Despite Ra's still saying Crane thinks they're only holding Gotham for ransom, Crane's POV shows that he knows what the League's plans are. He joyously gloats that this way—infecting millions of people with his Fear Gas and watching what happens to Gotham—will speed up his research, and he later laments that only a couple thousand got affected by it rather than millions.

Now, as for matching up to other villains....

• Ra's himself comes up with the plan to destroy Gotham, however he is the leader of a HUGE organization and only comes as close as he does to destroying Gotham because of Crane.

• The Joker, despite a much longer rapsheet and more personal crimes, ultimately only attempts to kill a couple hundred people at the most, which pales in comparison to Crane's attempted millions.

• Finally, Bane and Talia take over Gotham, turn it into an anarchy ruled cesspool, and plan to blow the entire city into smithereens. This is nasty, however, again, they have WAY more resources than Crane, and honestly, Crane's method of destroying Gotham was a lot more sadistic than theirs. The fact that Crane actually has a ruling position in Bane's controlled Gotham also puts a hellton of murder on his hands for all those he sends to their "deaths by exile."

Overall? I think Crane just makes it here. He has the least resources of any major villain except Joker (Who he outdoes in "mass-affecting" heinousness), and even still, his assistance in the League's plan to drive all of Gotham into destroying itself in insanity eclipses most every villain's final scheme. Add his petty and twisted crimes of driving several students insane, betrying his allies, and performing nasty experiments on his own patients, coupled with numerous counts of personal murder and torment....and I think he passes.

Final Verdict?

A toughie considering the high heinous standard of the Nolanverse!Batman, but I'd lean towards 'Keep'. Crane's "motive" is a hollow expression of his god complex and desire to have power over others (And he takes way too much joy out of his crimes anyway) and his role in the attempted Fear Gassing of Gotham is much more pronounced here.

But as always, discussion is welcome, so let's see where this goes.

I was thinking of effortposting Stefano from Evil Within 2, but if anyone else wants to they can. He's a pretty clear-cut qualifier.

Abstaining on Novelization!Crane. Lex Luthor from the imaginary crossover story, who is still better than the Frank Miller version.

edited 10th Dec '17 7:58:43 PM by ANewMan

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand in the span of a day, we go from only one version of Scarecrow counting to four. Book!Movie!Scarecrow gets a yes from me.

Felix, Lex and Crane

Crane. His motive really did it for me. A psychopath who commits atrocities under the guise of wanting to "cure" fear and create a "perfect world", all just so he can rule it? Easy keep.

Crane again.

Crane, who honestly sounds worse than Joker in the novel continuity.

Yes to Crane.

to Felix,Crane and Luthor

You know....We already have a character named Felix and hes from Red vs Blue