During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
People aren't disregarding the rules.
...wow, what'd I miss?
No rules are being broken here, and I'm really tired of the baseless accusation being thrown at anyone willing to up-vote Syndrome.
Someone strong-arming the thread into rediscussing a Never Again entry.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Hagen and Wolf. Good candidates and good effortposts.
PhiSat has proposed two examples. Nothing else.
edited 27th Jun '16 3:14:23 PM by Nithael
No, a Never Again entry cannot be discussed again unless new information is brought up. And new information was brought up.
No rules were broken in any way.
Hagen and Wolf
edited 27th Jun '16 3:15:10 PM by Irene
Long story short, counter-arguments for why Syndrome is on the Never Again list have been posted so several of us are arguing whether or not Syndrome should qualify for CM.
For the last 5 or 6 pages, nearly every post has been related to Syndrome, and we've even overlooked two other candidates because of this.
Wild Child
For the record, I'm voting ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on Hagen, on the basis that the other three proposals (before Phi Sat removed them) were world-destroyers with body-counts numbering in the billions.
Planeswalker
I'm neutral on whether he's included or not, but the other proposals are Physical Gods. Might be on another level of heinous.
Wolfstar and Hagen, who seems to do all he can for his position.
Wild Child
I recall I mentioned how we should handle resources: we judge on what the villain would do if they had the same resources as the higher-up villain.
I figured we'd judge this by seeing what the villain does with the resources at their disposal. Hagen kills one person, and tries to kill three others (one of which he abused). As bad as it is, that's not indicative of someone who'd destroy entire planets and wipe out billions if they had that power.
edited 27th Jun '16 3:27:48 PM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?
Wolfstar and Hagen
I was unaware of the scope of the other villains. Retracting my yes for Hagen, replacing with .
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wolfstar (what ends up happening to him, and is the other character expressly forbidden to enter the afterlife gonna be in the second group of effortposts?), unsure on the other.
Planeswalker
The other character is not, as she's insane and thus unfortunately does not qualify. And Wolfstar ends up torn apart limb from limb by the twisted spirits of the children he threw into the Star Gate, and his soul has to find the deepest coldest space in the universe to spend eternity.
edited 27th Jun '16 3:50:45 PM by PhiSat
Oissu!
Just one thing to note: resources and comparative heinousness can make a difference, but if the scale is set really, really high, you've gotta be really, really bad to qualify with what you have. I'm reserving judgment on Hagen till I see the others still.
Oh, jeez, someone opened a can of worms...
Not going to bother voting on Syndrome. I personally believe him to pass the baseline but I'm not going to risk adding anymore fuel to the fire.
Caesar
Hmmmmm, Hagen's a tough one. He's definitely bad, but the heinous standard is pretty high, although he does have considerably less respourves than most.....I think I'll give him a very tentative 'Yes' for now. If other candidates end up disqualifying him, I'll take it back, but for now, I think he makes it.
Also, just so everyone knows, Syndrome's not a firm keeper or a firm cut yet. It's close, but the 'Yes' votes are barely ahead. It's about 12 Yes votes to 9 No votes. Within a few hours, after anyone else who wants to vote has voted, we can finish that discussion up. Because, as has been said, this is a completely legit discussion that's not breaking any rules.
edited 27th Jun '16 4:24:55 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Even so I'd rather we shelve it.
Why? We get into long discussions about touchy subjects all the time.
edited 27th Jun '16 4:27:39 PM by VeryMelon
Because it's a Never Again.
Caesar
Shelving it is not a good idea, IMO. This is a completely legitimate re-evaluation of a villain due to new rule changes making him more liable to be a contender. We shouldn't shelve Syndrome anymore than we should have shelved Scar. Just because a candidate causes some "controversy" doesn't mean we should brush them aside and pretend like they were never brought up, especially when there's now a more legitimate argument for their inclusion.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
What rule changes have been cited here? Like I said I missed most of the debate.
So was Scar. Now he's not and was approved as one.
off screen villainry used to be far stricter to the point that seeing the body of a hero he killed before didn't count to his crimes.
edited 27th Jun '16 4:35:45 PM by doineedaname
Wild Child
Okay, so the main reasons for Syndrome being downvoted is whether he's heinous enough, and that he's sympathetic. And as I mentioned, I don't find him sympathetic in the slightest.
Why so serious?