Ok it was mentioned there is not a thread for Law Enforcement Officers (LEO for short)and other similar jobs for discussion.
This is for discussing the actual jobs, ranks, training, culture, relations to military bodies that exist, and any other variety of topics that can arise pertaining to the World of Policing.
OMG NO NOSECONES
I don't get the "no taping LEO" thing, either. Shoot, we hae to be watched all the time, why can't they? It all falls under the 'be mindful of your behavior, as you might be taped' thing. Editing can go both ways - you can edit out the bad stuff to make people look better than they really are, or worse. How many "X is/are an idiot" tapes air in raw form? None. Probably cherry-picked the answers to make the questionee look as idiotic as possible.
Plus, which judge would allow edited tape to be used as evidence...? I'd imagine only the raw stuff would hold up in a court of law, as it's untampered...
Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Meh.. Personally, I'm not for taping anybody. I don't like being watched, and I wouldn't do that to other people in public myself.
Little Rock SWAT competing against other cities a few years ago. Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU9blF2q_V8
edited 7th Sep '11 3:13:46 PM by Aprilla
Various types of role playing and immersion programs are used to mentally condition law enforcement officers throughout the world, among them being the popular idea of immersing them in scenarios that enable them to see the justice system from the criminal or victim's point of view.
In France, cadets are assigned to the intensive care unit of a hospital, or they are assigned to work in a mortuary. Allegedly, British special forces do something similar. I believe some cadets in the US are assigned to hospitals that have frequent treatment of victims of violent crimes and vehicle-related injuries, and this gives them the opportunity to better understand situations such as domestic violence, drunk driving, speeding and gang violence.
Some trainees and even a few law students in some areas are required to spend several nights in jail. There is also a training technique supposedly used by the FBI in which the agent in training is a suspect in a mock trail involving murder, money laundering or drugs. The mock trail can play out in a variety of ways. They may be released due to insufficient evidence, there could be a corrupt member of the court either working for or against them; or they could get the book thrown at them with little warning or provocation.
This role playing serves the purpose of really getting it in the agents' or law students' heads that there are real and heavy consequences to be found in making a case as either a defender or a prosecutor. For officers in particular, this approach ideally helps them better grasp the fragile nature of the criminal justice system. More specifically, they have to learn very quickly that there is more to law enforcement than simply wearing a badge and gun and throwing people in jail.
What are your thoughts on these methods of training?
edited 13th Feb '12 11:08:41 PM by Aprilla
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
I think they are good. It can help the various professionals wrap their head around the bigger picture. It also helps them realize to a limited extent their various actions have the weight of consequence that they may be unaware of. It also in some of those cases reveals that the system is far from perfect and their a number of "other" factors that can impact their job and how it is done.
Who watches the watchmen?
The justice system is far from perfect, so I'd like to see LEO trainees come to this realization in a controlled environment rather than having it thrown in their faces to the point where they become disillusioned. I've encountered too many officers who are, frankly speaking, malcontent jerks because they've lost passion for their work. When you see enough rapists and murders go free without so much as a slap on the wrist, it might leave you with the impression that you are not an efficient law officer, or better yet, that you represent an inefficient organization.
The bit about spending the night in jail is personally important to me. Before you are given your badge, you need to understand what it really means to put a human being behind bars, whether they deserved it or not. As one colleague put it, a cop's job isn't to prove your innocence at the very moment of truth, but to contain you until the truth can be sorted out in a court of law. However, this is one of the main points of probable cause. Probable cause is an inherently difficult technique to employ because it requires careful judgement in a morally and legally complex environment.
Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why I don't like the polygraph test in academy. My girlfriend went through the police academy, and she mentioned how many trainees were easily able to outwith the polygraph through methods as simple as taking shallower breaths or thinking of a non-related topic when certain questions were brought up. This does not hone cops' ability to tell the truth. It hones their ability to make up stories, and I have more than one friend on the force who has failed polygraph test questions that they truthfully answered. But I'll get off my soapbox on that one. I've already complained about that issue.
Taking a cadet to a morgue or an ER and showing them gunshot victims or people who have essentially had their bodies crushed because of a reckless or intoxicated driver gives a better reality check than those study guides that the department gives out.
Aware this was a while back, but I've just been accepted, and am now waiting for them to come back with training dates.
What questions do you have about the process? I'd note the physical is a damn joke. I'm not currently in the greatest shape either from a strength or cardio perspective, and scored easily forty/fifty percent over the requirements without really pushing myself. Literally no-one of the twenty or so candidates who reached that part of the process failed it.
The written portion again was fairly easy. Just keep your head, and don't write more then you need to on the report and you'll be fine. You just have to be careful, because a certain number of spelling or grammatical errors (nine IIRC) is an instant fail. Also, equal ops is important, there will be a really obvious example to highlight, but also a more subtle one - be careful about assumptions of pronouns and such. Oh if you have dyslexia or similar computer options are provided so keep that in mind.
The competency interview they're going to give you will easily be the most difficult section of the process. They will give you the areas they're going to ask questions in, and when you have that write out a couple responses for each section, with an issue, your action, result, what you would have done differently format.
To the thread at general. What general advice do you have for someone coming up? Note, in the course of my previous jobs I've dealt with the 'standard' extreme situations (assault, suicide, serious injury etc) so don't perceive that being something I can't hack.
"When you cut your finger, I do not bleed." Response of a man who lived on the outskirts of a concentration camp.
Street Writing Man
A question to LE Os who frequent this thread...
Have police training methods changed in the past 20 years or so? My experience with older police officers (40+) is that they are generally courteous and polite; sure, they've got authority and they let you know it, but their primary goal seems to be to put you at ease when having to talk to you (say, when you are stopped for a traffic violation).
By contrast, younger officers I've dealt with have been to a man aggressive, confrontational and downright insulting. Dealing with them, I got the distinct impression that they were trying to push me off balance or make me angry (they did, but I was careful not to show it).
The worst was a couple of years ago when an officer stopped me and two other vehicles in a speeding situation. I wasn't speeding, they were. One of the vehicles was the same make and model as mine. I tried politely explaining this to the officer (who appeared to be in his late twenties), and he dismissed my claim, handed me a ticket and told me "tell it to a judge". I asked to see the radar reading; at first he refused, and when I insisted he allowed it...though when I stepped out of my car (at his instruction, following his commands the whole way), he put his hand on his gun and popped the safety strap. Made me nervous as hell, but I took a look at the radar reading anyhow. I wrote it down and got back in my car.
Once back inside the cop then tried to lecture me about "wasting his time". When my wife tried to say something, he pointed his finger at her and said (quote) "you shut up, I'm not talking to you."
I ended up getting the ticket dismissed, but it was a headache.
Now, I've had very similar experiences with young police (city cops, State Patrol, County Sheriff, etc); they were very pushy and gung-ho (and in some cases, like above, downright rude with no real reason).
I'd like to respect those who wear badges, but when they behave like this its difficult to want to. It's gotten to the point where I won't let police under 35 in my house...if they want to talk to me (and they occasionally do about things that happen in the neighborhood, it's not all that great) I step outside instead of inviting them in.
What gives?
If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Depends on the department. My dad is as crusty as they come in LAPD, he's an asshole on the job. Older LAPD cops are jackasses, though the new culture is pretty shitty too. Lots of type A macho bullshit, it's why I would never join their department.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That is because War on Drugs and War on Terror
Now domestic police are copying this look. It is intimidating, alienating, and de-humanizes the cops in the eyes of the citizenry. That's the polar opposite of what a "peace officer" in a community is supposed to represent to citizens. By the same token, the cops being suited up like that probably strips away some of their inhibition about using disproportionate force by the very same psychological distancing process.
http://vannevar.blogspot.com/2011/11/black-palestinian-say-it-loud.html
... this sort of abusive behavior is reported routinely by people of color and by people of lower economic status. Yet their complaints are routinely dismissed or ignored in the media. Sometimes it takes middle and upper class white people getting hurt to get the media moving (Fallows)
But that cop/soldier, who's been treating Black people and Palestinian people that way for a long time, has reached a place where he's going to start treating you that way. Not all cops/soldiers, just the fringe. The Tony Bolognas and the John Pikes see you that way.
Street Writing Man
@Barkey: so what is the point of type-A macho bullshit when your main objective is to keep the peace? Why are departments training their officers so?
If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
Departments aren't training their officers that way, it's just the prevailing mood of the members of the department itself.
There's a combination of reasons, some of which are quite understandable. You lose your trust in people as a police officer, because everybody hates you, and everybody lies to you. You care less and less about how polite you are to people and would rather just jump straight to the point. That's a natural consequence of policework.
On the other end, there's a prevailing attitude in LAPD that by being so aggressive, you can essentially prevent resistance, keep a suspect from taking advantage of how polite you are by giving them no room to establish a rapport. This is a very American trait, it reminds me of the way the American Military acts overseas. Stern commands, big guns, offensive posture. We protect ourselves by essentially saying "Look how badly I could fuck you up, don't even try it."
Now like any valid strategy, that has its positives and negatives. Much of the time it really does work out that way, but on the downside the really determined criminals will just try that much harder, and innocent people get their feathers ruffled when they have to deal with people like that, because most people don't encounter folks like those in their everyday lives.
At the end of the day, there are valid reasons for the attitude, but there are also consequences. Part of me is saddened by the result of that attitude towards the innocent civilian population, another part of me doesn't care for the sensitive whining of regular people who have no idea what LAPD officers go through on a regular basis. Regardless, I have no plans to go to LAPD or more locally, Oxnard PD, which has the same atmosphere. I've dealt with cops from both departments that I don't know in a civilian capacity where they did not know that I was law enforcement myself, and that macho asshole routine really pissed me off. Then on the job at my civvie job, the bastards never want to socialize whatsoever when they come to help us with a call. Gets me pissed off that they'll sit around and laugh and bullshit with the EMT's and Firefighters, but a Security Officer who is a part time LEO isn't up to snuff apparently.
Street Writing Man
Well, see, that's the problem. Once someone has dealt with that kind of officer as a person who is not guilty of any crime, that person is less likely or willing to cooperate in the future unless they are forced to.
At this point I'm in that boat, to be honest. If a police officer shows up at my door, I'll give them whatever level of cooperation is required to get them to go the hell away and leave me alone, because I don't really want to be bothered or hassled by some asshole on a power trip. I know I'm not alone in this; Many people I've talked to have had bad experiences with police behaving dubiously and as such don't really want to help them out any more than is necessary.
Police have been quite startled when I've told them "no, I'm not going to let you in my house without a warrant, but I'm happy to step out on the porch and answer whatever questions you have". On one occasion a pair of officers got real put out about my attitude, asking me why I was being "rude"; I told them that I'd had multiple poor experiences with members of their profession and as such I wasn't willing to extend any more courtesy to such individuals than the law required me to. I'm aware that it's a silly thing to make bones over, but I only invite people in who are welcome, and because of their prior behavior LE Os on official business have lost that privilege.
LEOS generally don't like that answer but in the end they've accepted it. I like living in a country that allows me to espouse such an attitude if I feel like it.
Still, I can't imagine that fostering such an attitude among the general law-abiding populace really helps with the law enforcement community's goal of keeping the peace. I'd rather have a better working relationship with those who chase criminals on my behalf (my tax dollars do pay their salary, they are working for my benefit, etc.) but I don't.
If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
^
Or... You could just cooperate politely with the ones who aren't being assholes?
That's essentially like if I was a complete asshole to every Muslim I met because I've had bad prior experiences with Muslims.
I guess the big problem is, being in Law Enforcement does turn you into a jaded asshole to some extent. Because regardless of the reputation of the police in the area, no matter where you go, people will lie to your face to get out of shit that they did wrong. There's always a goddamn excuse about why they were speeding, or that they weren't speeding, or that those drugs aren't theirs, etc.
Fucking sick of sob stories and excuses, I've always been a big proponent of rewarding truth and politeness whenever I could on the job. If you're just straight with me about what the fuck you did, and it's a misdemeanor level crime, you're probably off the hook.
edited 21st Feb '12 7:19:47 AM by Barkey
Street Writing Man
Oh, don't misread; I cooperate with all of them, whether or not they are being assholes. Cooperation is the quickest way to get an LEO to stop bothering you, and I learned right quick that acting surly just gives them an excuse to hassle you further. But the intent is always to get them to go away as quickly as possible, because I don't trust them.
...Just like I'm sick of asshole cops who misuse/exceed their authority, which has been my primary experience with them. I can see where you are coming from though; I've seen the way most people want to deal with LE Os and I usually end up shaking my head.
Feel like moving to Washington? ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Anyhow, I guess you and me have different viewpoints because of differing experiences. My experience with police of all kinds has been almost uniformly poor; when I've needed them to do things for me, they've done a piss-poor job of it. When I have to deal with them in other capacities, they have generally been rude or otherwise irritating (there are some nice officers on the local city PD, but being an offensive dickwad seems to be a prerequisite for getting hired by the Whatcom County Sheriff's Department).
I've also had some pretty frightening experiences; I got hauled out of my car once at shotgun-point over a case of mistaken identity (I didn't blame the individuals and I still don't, but still...) and I had an officer straight-up lie in court over something I supposedly did (I didn't) during one of the two times I've been through the judicial wringer.
As I said earlier, I'd really like to trust those who wear badges but after 14 years of dealing with them as an adult I find I just don't.
If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~
OMG NO NOSECONES
Drunk, you might be running into a generational difference. An older cop is, firstly, an older person. That may play a factor in how they act. Not saying it DOES, but it could be.
Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
I can't seem to find the original video that does a much better job of explaining CQB. However, this one is pretty interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfBffSr1udk
edited 17th Mar '12 8:37:09 PM by Aprilla
Officers, how do you guys feel regarding the Trayvon Martin murder case and the way the department reacted? I ask because earlier you were talking about relationships between citizens and law enforcement, and this case in particular is an example of why a number of citizens have such an uneasiness if not outright distrust towards the latter. The fact the guy killed an innocent teenager(likely due to be being black and therefore "suspicious" and an asshole in his mind) is disheartening enough on its own, but not getting arrested for it because he claimed self defense, despite the kid being unarmed(unless you count a bag of skittles as a lethal weapon) and him engaging the kid first?
It's sad, because as someone who has known officers and have a family member in law enforcement, I know a lot of you guys, even if a tad jaded at times have good intentions and truly try to make sure justice is brought to those who deserve it. But then when things like this happen, it only further creates a rift between the groups, making your job even harder.
Honestly I think the whole thing is bullshit, they need an outside internal affairs investigation to crawl up that entire departments ass unless a proper investigation and prosecution is mounted asap.
Police Departments usually don't condone vigilante justice at all for exactly this reason, the fact that the department isn't doing anything pretty much says they do condone it, which is some thing most local and state governments don't stand for.
Their reaction is mind boggling. The guy should have been booked the second it happened, at least for 48 hours.
Edit: Not sure about Florida, but where I live as an LEO you are obligated to detain and hold a suspect in a felony(I.E. murder) until the situation is cleared up. I would assume they have a similar law in Florida since there's laws just like it in most states I've been to. If there is, the responding officers broke the law by not detaining him for the 48 hour maximum until they could charge him with suspected murder or at least manslaughter, just to keep him off the street until they could change that.
edited 20th Mar '12 3:22:54 PM by Barkey
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Wow pardon me while I laugh my ass off. " Elite Border Patrol" I am sorry there is nothing "Elite" About any of the border patrol teams.
Who watches the watchmen?
Prima Donna Director
Regardless, this article says that the whole 'we gave arms directly to cartels' thing was pulled straight outta somebody's ass.
"Urge to thump... rising." -Fighteer
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Just got done reading the article. There is no real proof just a rehash of what everyone has said and the article specifically takes one side. It cites a lot of "proof" without actually showing us any sources. I find it dubious at best. Plausible certain parts are acccurate but like lots of other issues this just yet someone elses take on the whole thing.
Personally I don't believe either side and want to see some hard documents with data on them.
Who watches the watchmen?
What about the documents that are in the Fortune article?
Yeah.. I've let people off for misdemeanors before, the way that I talk to people sometimes in practice would not be looked upon highly in a review by my superiors or a court system.
In practice, I stand by every action I've made as an LEO for the military. Much of my attitude would be frowned upon by the "by the book" club however.