Settlement expansion in Palestine.

^^^ The actions of your governments speak for themselves. From Britain, to France, to Germany and beyond European governments everywhere condemned the last few times the IDF ever did anything to defend Israel.

In the 2006 war against Hezbollah Europe clamored for Israel to stop even though Hezbollah in their abduction of IDF troops was the aggressor.

In 2008, the IDF was again hassled and clamored to stop going after Gaza despite the fact that Hamas rockets had killed or wounded dozens of Israeli CIVILIANS who had been deliberately targeted.

Where does the condemning end? At what point to the Euros is it okay for them to respond to being attacked by rockets and suicide bombers? Do they need to have Syrian and Jordanian tanks rolling across their territory like in 1967?

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."

... Answer my private mail please. Otherwise I refuse to continue fruitlessly arguing with you.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?

Ah, german foreign policy: Complain about Isreal in press conferences and then go to the parliament to approve dicount arms sales to the IDF. Just don't take any cohersive stance, or one could get the impression the German governmant might actually have a foreign policy.

Merkel is especially bad about this, unless there is an election to win with something (like the Greek bail out fiasco). Schröder was probably worse. The stern opposition of the Iraq War was bas...Screw it. Off Topic

Edit: A PM? Insults? Death Threats?

edited 28th Sep '10 1:39:52 PM by DasAuto

Now if you excuse me, Starfleet is about to award the Christopher Pike Medal to my dick. — SF Debris

^ Foe Yay?

Ok, forget I said that.

Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.

Been done.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.

I was finishing that post and there was a twenty hour gap due to things that happened...

The PLO was like that, before they were coopted into supporting Israel

edited 28th Sep '10 4:37:16 PM by BalloonFleet

WHASSUP....... ....with lolis!

If the Israelis continue to insist that they won't accept peacefully coexisting with the palestinians unless they're forced then somebody will have to. Might as well be Syria and Jordan

edited 29th Sep '10 12:06:23 AM by Kzickas

Galloway puts it better than I could. [1]

edited 29th Sep '10 12:21:25 AM by JethroQWalrustitty

the statement above is false

He puts the journalist on a tight spot, but that's what she gets for inviting him. What was she thinking? Well, it's her job, so deal with it.

edited 29th Sep '10 3:16:29 AM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?

I strongly recommend these articles here.

Talk about an eye opener.

edited 29th Sep '10 5:22:06 AM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

The land doesn't "belong" to the Palestinians any more - probably less - than it "belongs" to the Israelis. Israel captured the land from Jordan and Egypt after a defensive war, not from a Palestinian nation, which has never existed, and those countries have never wanted the lands back. In any case, those areas were originally part of the land given to the Jews under the British mandate, which the Arabs didn't accept. The term "illegal" used for the settlements just plain isn't true; there is no law that says that they don't belong to the Jews any more than there's a law that says that Vermont doesn't belong to the US.

In any case, it's generally understood that in a final plan, Israel will retain the largest settlement blocs in exchange for equal land in Israel proper that's currently populated by an Arab majority, so claiming that all that land will go back to the Palestinians isn't true either.

Settlements are not the big issue here. The major issue, as has always been, is trust. The Israelis don't trust the Palestinians not to turn around and try and kill them all; the Palestinians don't trust the Israelis not to turn around and grab all their land back. Both have been burned in the past. Building trust is going to take a long, long time on both sides and no amount of carrots and sticks can hurry that process. "Peace" is not a fish you can catch or a gift you can throw in someone's lap.

^ Bravo good sir!

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."

First of all, nothing legal about it. The 1948 treaty made it quite clear that seizure of Palestinian land to build settlements on, with or without payment, was a no-no. Furthermore, those settlements are on the Palestinian side of the border.

I have more to add to counter that post, which is severely flawed, but that will do for the moment until I do more research.

Further research. Read my second link, the one containing the details of the 1948 treaty itself. I think you'll find there is mention explicitly of an economic union with an independent Palestinian state.

Without outside help, there will never be peace. Short of a miracle. This I assure you.

edited 29th Sep '10 12:06:01 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

You know that Israel attacked egypt in 67 right and that Jordan got involved because they and egypt had an agreement that either would help if the other was attacked right?

Anyway the biggest problem from the palestianian point of view is that they know that Israel will not willingly give them their homes back. And as long as that's the case in my opinion the Palestinians have every right to take any oppertunity they see to attack Israel. In fact if there was an independent palestinian state then as long as Israel is unwilling to let the palestinian refugees return then the palestinian government has a duty to it's people to attack Israel if it thinks doing so will succeed because it is a government duty to fight for the rights of it's people

The problem is that the current Palestinian strategy of fighting back is fucking stupid. Killing civilians helps you do... what, exactly?

Beyond making anyone who might help you hate your guts?

edited 29th Sep '10 12:51:44 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

If I recall correctly Britain owned/occupied that land during/before World War II and gave it to the Israelis after the war.

Long story short: This shit is a clusterfuck.

There's no reason fighting back means killing civilians. I support the palestinians right to fight for their rights 100% but I still condem attacking civilians. It's both because it's wrong and because it's as you say stupid.

Edit: the land as a country yes that's more or less true (although it was the UN that gave it to the jews, the UK wanted to give it to the palestinians). The land as individual property belonged to it's individual owners and it's still theirs

edited 29th Sep '10 12:57:20 PM by Kzickas

And, fractal-style, so is every discussion involving the subject.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.

The thing is Kzickas, the Palestinians have no means of attacking military targets, because Israel has pretty much disarmed them bar a few small arms and some rocket launchers. (all acquired under Israeli noses.) They cannot win anything from direct conflict. Which is why I say they must start channelling Ghandi.

^It does tend to get rather disjointed. I learn something new every time this comes up, because every time someone brings up a new aspect and I have to go do a fuck-ton of research.

edited 29th Sep '10 12:56:57 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

I did say an independent palestinian state and if they thought it would succeed. Currently I think the best strategy for the palestinians is to agree sign away whatever rights the Israelis want to bully them into signing away, then once the Israelis are out of the west bank build up a strong enough military that going back in would be non-trivial then declare the agreement void and constantly watch for any moment of weakness from Israel

Edit: Intelligence is also another powerful way for the palestinians to attack Israel. The plans for the Markava in Damascus would probably hurt Israel more than a thousand Markavas. On a more realistic note Israel could have some difficulty actually carrying out whetever policies they decide towards the palestinians if a palestinian organization were in possetion of evidence of various mid-level officials' infidelity, insurance fraud, unorthodox sexual preferences and so forth

edited 29th Sep '10 1:18:11 PM by Kzickas

That will never work. The Israelis will always be able to maintain dominance and they will never let the West Bank and Gaza rearm. Help at this point must come from outside. And, if it is to aid the Palestinians specifically, from away from Middle-eastern shores.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

The question of course is if it can. Look at how quikly and efficiently Hezbollah prepared a defence of Lebanon after the Israeli withdrawl. It's alot easier getting weapons into the West Bank than it is into Gaza, and Israel will have a harder time justifying any attempt if they are, even temporarily at peace.

Edit: Specifically if you spin it as "Israel hates us and wants us to be unable to defend ourselves so they can bully us as they please". Then I think any Israeli attack to stop a militarization would basically convince the world that the palestinians have a right to and a need for a strong military. Especially important is popular opinion in Egypt, Turey and Jordan. Having the Jordanians on board would make keeping arms out of the West Bank basically impossible (and the same for Egypt and Gaza, if against all odds someone who doesn't favor attacking Israel at once manages to hold it for more than 5 minutes despite it's demograpgics) and having to divert forced to watch the Egyptian border as well as watching for a Turkish air/naval attack and watching the Syrian border would leave less resources to use against Palestine

edited 29th Sep '10 1:39:31 PM by Kzickas

I read 61 and 62 and despair. That stinks of Politics Is The Mind-Killer  ^*

and One Argument Against a Thousand  ^**

^{Using One Piece Of Evidence To Confront Every Successive New Piece Of Evidence Against It Wallowing In A Feeling Of Rightfulness And Not Seeing The Bigger Picture: That There Are Many Many Arguments Against Your Single Lone One You Cling To}

. What pisses me off the most is that Israel aplogies, despite my always assuming they spoke in good faith, have been proven wrong in arguments like this 100% of the time! And they never change positions or even soften them. They keep coming up with half-truths, half-baked justifications, and as many homicidal irrationalities, and I and the other have to go do a ton of research and learn of horrors we wish we never knew in order to debunk them. And what do we get in exchange? Nothing. Not a single "Sorry, I was wrong" or a "I think Israel is being unnecessarily cruel" or "There is blatant injustice going on". No, it's all "The PLOHamas are fanatical communistsislamists and mureders and not human and deserve to die. Palestinians are their accomplices and deserve to die. Israel is perfectly entitled to do everything it does. Things should stay the way they are.". I wish this was a strawman, but this tends to be The Bottom Line, and then they go find arguments to get there.

If at this point the capitalized lesswrong references don't ring a bell, I'll edit the article. But I'm frankly tired of mentioning their site all the time: these should be common priorscommon knowledge.

edited 29th Sep '10 1:39:05 PM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?

Unfortunately I am unfamiliar with the site of which you speak Raw. Could you perhaps PM me on it?

I agree. You don't get anywhere if you angelise one side and demonise the other. It is a question of objectivity...

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

To find a site whose name you know, you have but to google it.

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